Saboteur changes for 1.8

[Beckmann]

The ship hasn't sailed on synergy unless the devs have decided it has. Just tag charges as ranged (or melee) and voila, instant synergy. Kind of bad synergy but still better than nothing. They still need to make 51 point sab largely stand on it's own though, so far it doesn't appear to but we need to see the next set of changes. I'm still convinced that it's a lost cause unless they address the general rogue energy problems and give sab some consistantly faster setup options.

Depends on what you mean by synergy. I meant Sab as a support soul for other builds, not Sab synergizing with the support existing in other builds. I agree with you on that.

[Beckmann]

What situation in the game RIFT would you use aoe bleeds?

I could see it on trash maybe.

Bleeds that last 10 secs with 2-to-6 secs to apply (Rapid Setup) would be useful in any situation that needed an AE soul. If stuff dies faster than 10 secs then you don't need an AE soul anyway. So I think the timing is acceptable at this point even if it's not ideal.

well when an aoe soul doesnt perform better than a non aoe soul at aoe, and also has no synergy, i deem it to be useless.

If that's the case in 1.8 then it's a failure but I'd be honestly surprised if Sab and BD had the same AE after all of these changes.

[Petgroup]

If that's the case in 1.8 then it's a failure

I've been saying this for weeks now. Glad you made it to the darkside. I always welcome new members

[HeavyMetalLucidity]

So, Ive got a question on Saboteur and its abilities.
Poisons and Munitions do not proc on any of the sab abilities. Also Serrated Blades and Keen Eye (+5 range) doesnt seem to work either.
However, all of these do proc and across multiple targets.
Fang of the Life Lord - melee
Song of Lost Souls - melee
Poisonous Coating - ranged
Increased Fire Power - melee/ranged

So whats the deal here? Sab is a ranged soul why doesnt it work as such?
Technically all the bombs, charges, and detonate are 30m (talented, 20m untalented) so it should be able to benefit from all the ranged talents.

[Beckmann]

I just thought of something that seems like it would help Sab tremendously.

Sab has a huge problem with timing -- e.g., when to detonate charges on mobs that are low on HP, or when to start pre-loading AE charges for adds on a boss fight. Messing up the timing in either case means a LOT of wasted time.

Which is why a lot of people have been saying "delete Sab, buff MM". Because Fan Out has none of these problems.

So what I think Sab needs is "its own fan out". Specifically, there needs to a spammable AE / ST bomb that can "fill in the gaps" when other bombs are off CD and loading charges isn't possible. Let's just call his "Spam Bomb" for now. Example:

Someone clicks Tome on Matron Zamira. Sab preloads 6 Spike charges on Matron and begins spamming Spam Bomb until adds show up with Rapid Setup activated (Spike x5 > Rapid Setup > Spam Bomb ...). When adds pop, Sab detonates the Spike, loads Caltrop, and Dets again (AB > Caltrop > Det). Since bleeds are going and the adds die fast, Sab loads Shrapnel on Matron until adds are very low, then starts spamming Spam Bomb again until each add is dead. Then Sab resumes ST rotation.

You can imagine a similar thing on trash or other bosses.

This would work by having a bomb with no cooldown that did ~80% of the DPS of a Shrapnel x5 > Det rotation to fill in gaps where charges weren't used (to preserve the advantage of using charges in other situations). Maybe there is also a Spam Bomb for ST only (~80% of Blast's DPS).

This skill would still be inferior to fan out when used alone, but hopefully with the other skills available to a Sab, the Sab would come out ahead. It simply serves as a quality-of-life aid to make using charges in real situations more viable.

[Enaki]

I can't remember if it was Beta or one of the PTS builds early in the game when they were still trying to figure out Sab that is exactly what Fragmentation Bomb did.

Changing it back would solve the problem you mentioned. It is also could be the only "ramp up time" solution we may see as they seem reluctant to add new abilities for Sab (as opposed to modifying existing ones).

[Zyzyx]

I just thought of something that seems like it would help Sab tremendously.

Sab has a huge problem with timing -- e.g., when to detonate charges on mobs that are low on HP, or when to start pre-loading AE charges for adds on a boss fight. Messing up the timing in either case means a LOT of wasted time.

Which is why a lot of people have been saying "delete Sab, buff MM". Because Fan Out has none of these problems.

So what I think Sab needs is "its own fan out". Specifically, there needs to a spammable AE / ST bomb that can "fill in the gaps" when other bombs are off CD and loading charges isn't possible. Let's just call his "Spam Bomb" for now. Example:



You can imagine a similar thing on trash or other bosses.

This would work by having a bomb with no cooldown that did ~80% of the DPS of a Shrapnel x5 > Det rotation to fill in gaps where charges weren't used (to preserve the advantage of using charges in other situations). Maybe there is also a Spam Bomb for ST only (~80% of Blast's DPS).

This skill would still be inferior to fan out when used alone, but hopefully with the other skills available to a Sab, the Sab would come out ahead. It simply serves as a quality-of-life aid to make using charges in real situations more viable.

Traps serve this purpose now.

[Gery]

Traps serve this purpose now.

Really badly. Castable ability that requires you to move to the targets to use it is just a big fail.

[Enaki]

Traps serve this purpose now.

You really are a masochist, aren't you?

[Beckmann]

Traps serve this purpose now.

This occurred to me but I don't think its a practical idea. Going 10 into MM for Fan Out seems like a better idea, but I think that is poor design. Sab should be self-sufficient.

[Zyzyx]

Really badly. Castable ability that requires you to move to the targets to use it is just a big fail.

I agree. He wanted a spammable aoe ,but didn't notice that one was already implemented.

[Beckmann]

Here's some data on damage / gcd / target. Testing done on 3 targets with relic bag gear. 2x Exquisite Whetstone, no vial.

Saboteur: Parsing Sab in 46/20 Sin. Data collected by executing rotation 10x without clipping bleeds. Data includes all damage done including secondary effects like Electrified Munitions, Residual Shrapnel, and High Explosives.

Rotation - total dmg over 10x - DPGPT
Time Bomb - 62.9k (59% TB, 41% HE) - 2.10k
Fragmentation Bomb - 61.4k (57% FB, 42% HE) - 2.05k
Spike x5 > AB - 338k (82% Spike, 10% AB, 8% HE) - 1.88k
Blast x5 > AB - 247k (74% Blast, 14% AB, 11% HE) - 1.37k
Chemical Bomb - 40.9k - 1.36k
Caltrop x5 > Det - 234k (93% Caltrop, 7% Detonate) - 1.30k
Shrapnel x5 > Det - 180k (90% Shrapnel, 9% Detonate) - 1.00k

Marksman: MM testing done in 51/13 NB/2 RS. Different tests done for different numbers of casts to show how Silver Tip changes the results. (Note that GI procs also influence this.)

Lightning Fury > Fanout x20 - 65.4k (69% Fan Out, 14% LF, 12% EM, 4% auto) - 1.09k
Lightning Fury > Fanout x40 - 135k (69% Fan Out, 14% LF, 12% EM, 4% auto) - 1.13k
Lightning Fury > Fanout x60 - 208k (69% Fan Out, 14% LF, 12% EM, 4% auto) - 1.15k

This data is useful because it you want to pack as many of the highest Dmg / Gcd / Target skills into your AE rotation as you can while maintaining highest bleed uptime without clipping. It illustrates where the damage from different souls comes from and what might need improvement.

Conclusion: Shrapnel spam is a DPS loss compared to Fan Out. To beat Marksman, as Sab you need to use Bombs and Spike Charge without clipping the bleeds. Caltrop currently is barely a DPS gain over Fan Out (definitely not enough of a gain to justify ramp up time, DoT, and having to use charges). This may change once the latest PTS changes are up.

Personally, I think its bad design that Shrapnel by itself does not beat Fan Out and Caltrop does not by much more, given all the advantages Fan Out has over it.

[Beckmann]

#1: With the current numbers, if the "Spam Bomb" did 850 damage per target per gcd, then it would serve as useful filler without surpassing Shrapnel. This would put it significantly behind MM, however (which may or may not matter given that Sab has other tools.)

#2: Estimate how much DPS a rotation does...

TB > FB > CB > Caltrop x5 > Det > Spike x5 > AB
TB > FB > CB > Caltrop x5 > Det > Shrapnel x5 > Det

Use weighted average of DpGCD given above to get DPS per target. There are 30 GCDs. Number of GCDs for each part of rotation:

TB - 2
FB - 2
CB - 2
Calx5 > Det - 12
Spikex5 > AB - 6
Shrapx5 > Det - 6

Estimated damage per target = 2.1 * 2 + 2.05 * 2 + 1.36 * 2 + 1.88 * 6 + 1.00 * 6 + 1.30 * 12 = 43.9k
Estimated DPS per target = 43.9 / 30 = 1.46k
Estimated DPS on 3 targets = 1.46 * 3 = 4.39k

This is within margin of error of actual testing which showed DPS of 4.45k, and RNG or Golem Inductor could account for this.

[Beckmann]

Theorycrafting the rotation I listed here using these numbers. (Of course, this doesn't account for the unspecified "adjustments" to Spike and Caltrop's DPS, but it does say something about they SHOULD be.)

Note: Scaling up the damage of Chemical Bomb by 25% to match its increased duration.

Note: I'm throwing in Lightning Fury (even though I'm using numbers from 46/20 above and 51/13/2 for LF, yes it's sloppy) as one GCD filler. It has DPGCD of 1.0k in my testing. (Aside, LF has the same DPGCD as a full Shrap x5 > Det rotation, so its at least as good [actually better] use of GCD to use LF than Shrap > Det. If Frag can detonate Splinter, then that would be a better option.) All of these assumptions are generous to Sab, so the actual DPS will be lower than claimed.

Background:

On PTS right now, this rotation:

TB > FB > CB > Shrap x5 > Det > Caltrop x5 > Det >
TB > FB > CB > Shrap x5 > Det > Spike x5 > AB

Sustains 4.45k DPS on 3 targets, or 1.48k DPS per target.

PTS Changes:

TB > FB > CB > Caltrop x5 > Det > LF
TB > FB > CB > Caltrop x5 > Det > LF
TB > FB > CB > Spike x5 > AB > LF

DPS per target ~= (3 * 2.1 + 3 * 2.05 + 3 * 1.71 + 12 * 1.3k + 6 * 1.88k + 3 * 1.0k) / 30 = 1.58k

So in this case the changes are not a big DPS gain. This is kind of obvious in hindsight because we have basically traded some Shrapnel detonations for Caltrop. The DPS difference between Shrapnel and Caltrop isn't too significant, so the real DPS gain is from adding in more bombs -- but since we've only increased their share of GCDs from 20% to 30%, it's not enough. So buffing Caltrop by shortening the bleed isn't a significant DPS increase, because the real limitation on DPS is Annihilation Bomb.

What if...

So what if AB's cooldown was 10 secs, then this rotation:

TB > FB > CB > Spike x5 > AB > LF

DPS per target ~= (2.1 + 2.05 + 1.71 + 6 * 1.88k + 1.0k) / 10 = 1.81k

That's a bit better! This equaties to 1.81 * 3 = 5.41k DPS on 3 targets, which leaves it 12% behind Stormcaller.

...wait, this is still pretty crappy. What's going on?

Well, it's obvious. SC/pyro is pulling 6200 on 3 targets, meaning it averages ~2k per target. But even Sab's best charge on a 25 second cooldown is below this -- Spike x5 / AB tops out at 1.88k DPGCD. The only things that come close are TB and FB, which are effectively on 8 and 10 sec cooldowns respectively and rely on properly spacing HE. (In fact, I've been pretty generous using the TB/FB numbers because HE is clipped from TB on the next rotation.)

Conclusions:

• The damage of Sab abilities is overall just bad. The only skills that compete with Stormcaller's sustained DPS are two bombs that are restricted to 15-20% of the GCDs in any rotation. Even the peak damage of Sab -- currently on a 25 sec CD -- is worse than what Stormcaller sustains.
• Charges need a big DPS buff overall since they constitute the majority of GCDs in any rotation. Caltrop and Spike better be getting a substantial DPS buff in the next round of patches, or Sab is going to still lag far behind Stormcaller. Shortening the bleeds really doesn't do anything. (Contrary to what I thought previously.)
• Spike is too much better than the other charges. The other charges are kind of embarrassing -- they need to brought up so that Annihilation Bomb isn't as significant as it is currently. Even after Spike is buffed, Blast, Caltrop, and Shrapnel need even bigger buffs to smooth out the rotation.
• Once charges are brought into line with Stormcaller, Bombs will need another buff or there will be no reason to use them in a rotation. (They are currently lower DPGCD than Stormcaller sustains by themselves.)
• 10 second rotations are still awkward. We want to use 10-seconds because the bleeds (especially Spike) are much higher DPS, but we need to use bombs within these 10 seconds because they are much higher DPGCD. Only having 3 bombs, that leaves us with an empty GCD and nothing useful to use it for (in AE). Combined Arms should affect Splinter and Ember charge as well, and maybe Shrapnel instead of Spike.

This paints a pretty grim picture, and frankly not one that can be addressed by the patch notes Ailion has just posted. A new mechanic needs to be added or there need to be across-the-board DPS gains or Sab simply will not catch Stormcaller.

[Durango]

This paints a pretty grim picture, and frankly not one that can be addressed by the patch notes Ailion has just posted. A new mechanic needs to be added or there need to be across-the-board DPS gains or Sab simply will not catch Stormcaller.

So basically what you are saying is that we still need a roughly 50% increase in DPS. I'm still partial to the passive that allows 2 charges per GCD and increases total charge count to 6 for 5-6s after a detonation type event (detonate, FB, AB). AKA we need to be able to apply 2x the number of charges as current in order to make it competitive. Esp given both the backloaded (STILL) and DOT nature of our damage. Compared with Cab/SC which don't have these significant restrictions, our steady state needs to be reasonably higher than their steady state or there will never be a point to ever bring a sab on a raid.

As it is, I don't think Sab out AoEs warrior ST specs!