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Thread: Rogues - Top DPS and why

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpshooter View Post
    What does spammable purges killing players have to do with how good/bad their tank is?
    Its a part of encounter mechanic?
    On Sicaron, purging puts a debuff on you that 1 shots you if you try once more, in RoTP each purge attempt hits you for 5k damage or so. If you repeat you kill yourself.
    And you have to be bad to kill yourself due to it. The lack of a CD on Eradicate makes it the best purge for mechanics such as these because you can adjust how much you use it based on what the mechanic requires, whereas to do the same as, say, a cleric or warrior you would need 2-3 to purge.

    Oh! Bonus where purging helps: Uruluuk~
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  2. #32
    Rift Master McWaffles's Avatar
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    It seems this devolved into "rogues should never be top dps because they have mm"

    Let me rephrase how this should go: All classes should be equal dps whether ranged or melee, but MM should not be close to rogue's top dps because it has too much utility.

    RS dps buffs need to have some replaced with actual tanking bonuses and other rogue dps souls (except MM) need slight buff to bring them to where other classes currently are, rather than where sin/rs builds are.

    Ranger needs AP scaling for self and pet. Plus an interrupt.

    Sab needs to die and be reborn.

    BD needs a little less disconnect problems and a ranged ability to make up for disconnects.

    Sin needs for stealth to be useful in PvE combat and slip away to have an effect like: "if jagged strike, assassinate, or paralyzing strike are used within 2 seconds of activating slip away, the next cooldown on slip away is reduced by 50%"

    NB needs to scale a little more and have it's weapon enchantments not suck.
    Last edited by McWaffles; 02-07-2012 at 12:07 AM.
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  3. #33
    Rift Chaser Sharpshooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt55511 View Post
    And you have to be bad to kill yourself due to it. The lack of a CD on Eradicate makes it the best purge for mechanics such as these because you can adjust how much you use it based on what the mechanic requires, whereas to do the same as, say, a cleric or warrior you would need 2-3 to purge.

    Oh! Bonus where purging helps: Uruluuk~
    I never said you need to be good to kill yourself over these mechanics, however it just shows that spammable purge only really benefits in PvP but in my opinion it puts balance in the game by preventing build who rely on heavy buffing from becoming OP. Eradicate is a good utility skill but its not something that needs balancing imo.
    Uruluuk is not so relevant anymore but you're right. It was indeed very useful there for the undergeared parties when this instance was still somewhat a challenge.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by McWaffles View Post
    Let me rephrase how this should go: All classes should be equal dps whether ranged or melee, but MM should not be close to rogue's top dps because it has too much utility.
    I could buy into this stock with a couple caveats... Although "not be close" might be a little broad, I can definitely agree that a build with that much utility should not do double duty as the top dps build (or even top ranged).

    I can see valid arguments for melee doing slightly more dps than ranged due to time on target concerns. Also for aoe-centric builds to fall behind on single targets and vice versa.

  5. #35
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    Rogue is the only calling having the combat-mechanics ON the specific target.

    A warrior builds up CPs on himself, a rogue builds 'em on his target.
    Additionally he works with bleeds, charges, debuffs that will also remain on the target.
    Also there are specific things (like for the Sin) that force us to be in a specific position (behind the target) to get certain damage boosts.

    That said a rogue using the max single target build (named Bloodstalker), having no utility (not even a kick), forced to attack from a certain angle (behind the target), building up bleeds, CP and debuffs on his target (expose weaknesses, impale...) and last but not least beeing in melee range should be the highest single target damage possible.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by crackeN999 View Post
    Some stuff that he said.
    You've nailed it brother.
    I'm just amazed at how butthurt all these warriors are that the
    biggest energy usage build in the game with (may as well be) ZERO AoE, Requires Melee (not that any warrior actually cares about this), ZERO utlity skills (not even an interrupt) actually manages to beat them in dps.

    So when you warriors are eventually given a PURE SINGLE TARGET dps build that requires consumables, a bard, maintaining buffs and debuffs/bleeds and is reliant on position relative to the target that SOMEHOW MANAGES TO BEAT A ROGUES' FACEROLLING DPS, i'll come complain on your forums.

    Just remember guys, you're trying to apply logic to something on the internet that's run only for profit. Let the trolling resume...
    Last edited by Holynight; 02-07-2012 at 01:00 AM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holynight View Post
    You've nailed it brother.
    I'm just amazed at how butthurt all these warriors are that the
    biggest energy usage build in the game with (may as well be) ZERO AoE, Requires Melee (not that any warrior actually cares about this), ZERO utlity skills (not even an interrupt) actually manages to beat them in dps.

    So when you warriors are eventually given a PURE SINGLE TARGET dps build that requires consumables, a bard, maintaining buffs and debuffs/bleeds, is reliant on position relative to the target that SOMEHOW MANAGES TO BEAT A ROGUES' FACEROLLING DPS, i'll come complain on your forums.

    Just remember guys, you're trying to apply logic to something on the internet that's run only for profit. Let the trolling resume...
    I actually never said that BS shouldn't be top ST DPS. I said that saying rogues should be the highest DPS simply based on the fact that they have more DPS souls is ignorant at best.

    I actually agree BS should be the top DPS spec, though not by the incredibly large amount it is now.
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  8. #38
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    Actually, our top st spec, aka bloodstalker, is really close (if not above) of warriors and mage dps, only Cleric are a little behind.

    I'm really fine with 1.7 about ST DPS (only cleric would need a little buffs to be in range with our dps in fact)

    If we talk a little about Aoe dps, on pack trash (to take the max output i have seen), the one just before Jornaru with a lot of mob, our warriors can do a 12-13k dps, mage 11-12k also, Cleric 10-11k, rogue in MM Spec 7,4k.
    The difference is we don't use the right spec here, there is a spec, dedicated for Aoe, that can certainly put a 10k at least on this pack in a rogue.

    There is only one problem, the spec for Aoe (like for mage and cleric) have a ****ing bad ST Dps, that make it unusable on a boss witch need ST Dps too, where warriors are the only class that don't need to change nothing (except the macro they will use may be). In fact, it would be really nice if everyone could have a trade off between being an Aoe-er or a ST dps-er. i don't think it's really great, for anyone, to have both in the same spec, that are the best output possible.

    In a raid, it would be more a question of "who do that or not and take the appropriate spec for this purpose" rather than Warriors do all the Aoe thing + ST and other only the ST cause they suck at Aoe in their ST spec.
    Yes, some people ask for an Aoe boost in their ST spec (rogue/mage mainly as inqui can have some sort of trade-off with not being top at Aoe and not at ST too in this spec) and i don't think it will be positive.

    I don't think having no trade-off and being able to have top st and top aoe in the same spec a good design ! We should have the possibility to tune our character and choose build for some purpose.

  9. #39
    Sword of Telara Gynxz's Avatar
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    So MM shouldn't be top because of its utility? I agree. I also agree that warr TOP dps should not have as much Aoe, an interrupt not Way of the Noob.

    I agree with Warrs. Utility should mean < Dps. So thanks warrs for finally agreeing that Bloodstalker should be top melee Dps across all classes.

    Love You All
    Last edited by Gynxz; 02-07-2012 at 01:39 AM.

  10. #40
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    uh, u for real?

    Roques should be on paar with other dps classes, not more not less. Number of souls has NOTHING to do with it. Whats more: Not all classes should be same viable on each encounter, i kinda like when one class excells the other in some encounters and vice versa. Same for PVP its all rock paper scissors. To bad warriors right now are all three of them, but i guess they are the most vocal and have the most responsiveness class developer ...

  11. #41
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    Any kind of hybrid tax, melee vs ranged disparity, or utility differences are completely irrelevant in this game and Trion has stated as much. Their goal is to allow all the callings to be as close to equal for all their available roles (including DPS) as possible. Because of the complex nature of the soul system and the ingenuity of the playerbase, certain builds and rotations will be found that perform better than others. Trion will then "fix" these builds through nerfing or buffing other callings as per their goal.

    The only thing having more souls designated for a specific role gives is greater versatility in that role. See clerics being able to spec for shields, hots, aoe healing etc... or warriors being able to spec for magic tanking, aoe threat tanking, max mitigation tanking etc... or rogues being able to ranged dps, stealth melee dps, standard melee dps etc... The exception to this is mages who have a ranged dps soul that heals, a ranged dps soul that buffs, two ranged dps souls that utilize pets, and four ranged dps souls that shoot different colored fireballs.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by McWaffles View Post
    NB needs to scale a little more and have it's weapon enchantments not suck.
    Eh, you realize that the only builds that scale better than NB are BD.

  13. #43
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    This is not a war between Warriors, Rogue, Cleric and Mage, it should not be.

    We are all player, we are probably all in a raid, and we should all want to be useful in our raid. Being useful is not being above every other calling, it's being in part with them. It's the only point we should remember, it's the only point we should ask Trion to work on.

    Design and game balance is an important thing, in PVE as in PVP, both are hard to balance, require a lot of work from Trion at least and from player to improve and feedback.

    The base is we have 20 spot in a raid, so 5 for each class.

    Actually,

    Warrior can : Tank / Dps
    Rogue can : Tank / Dps / Assist
    Cleric can : Tank / Dps / Heal
    Mage can : Dps / Heal / Assist

    The first thing to balance is to add an Assist soul to Warriors, there is one, that actually is almost designed to it, the BM, the only thing that make our raid don't run with a BM, is that his aura (+7% dmg) don't provide as much DPS to the raid (Aka only a +2% compared to another buff we can have and that don't stack) that the loose of DPS generated by the BM himself, if the BM's pets debuff was tuned a little down (the one that stack with dot and increase Pets damage by 5% for each stack of debuff, maxed at 25%, was working for the full raid, and limited to 15% max, would make this soul really useful in a raid).

    The BM don't need a lot of thing to be an useful assist that keep a relatively each self dps, he just need some tweak to make it really useful for the raid.

    We all know that the 3 tank classes should be able to Tank in the same ways and have a mitigation very close. This is necessarily positive for any raid and turn over possibility. In fact, about tank balance, they all need Aoe and ST possibility. It should not be deserved to only 2 callings (Aka Warriors and Rogue), Cleric should also be competitive at this place. The other thing is the possibility to kick spell, it should be ranged (20m) for all tank, warriors are currently very stuck with their melee kick (on apostle, it suck a little)

    About DPS, it's really more complex, cause we have a mixe of Aoe + ST spec, ranged or not etc, that probably stuck Trion in balancing the game. It's a lot of work.

  14. #44
    Rift Master McWaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    Eh, you realize that the only builds that scale better than NB are BD.
    And yet we still don't scale very well.
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  15. #45
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Why folks care about being able to dish out more dps than any current encounter will ever require, I'll never know.

    All that means is that the next raid instance will likely be tuned to compensate for all this bad-*** dps you guys are doling out, and then the cycle of mudflation will happen all over again.

    Soon it won't be people comparing 3-5k dps parses on sicaron!

    It'll be "How many consumables and cooldowns can we stack in a 15 second period to absolutely explode sicaron!"

    First contract, BOOM. Boss dead.

    Look ma! 150k dps! lolololols.

    /rolls eyes.

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