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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: The (un)official rogue 1.8 anticipation/feedback thread

  1. #1
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Default The (un)official rogue 1.8 anticipation/feedback thread

    There are many threads popping up about things. We are all anxious to see the plans for 1.8. There were many issues in the rogue calling that 1.7 left untouched. I understand there is only so much time in the work week and we might be expecting too much. Here are some issues on our mind some of which aillion has already commended on:

    1) In regards to the Sab soul:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ailion View Post
    Changes to the Saboteur are being planned for 1.8.

    Feel free to post your feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ailion View Post
    Overhauling the entire Sab soul is not an option. General playstyle of the Sab stays the same. Promoting synergy between the Sab and other souls is definitely something to look at. It should be the strongest AOE DPS soul among the Rogues and competitive with other AOE specialist in other callings.
    Personally, I'm very anxious to see how aillion/trion will fix this soul and bring it back to its former glory.

    a) Bombs are not worth using. Synergy crystal and greater give dmg bonuses to these ,but they still aren't worth using because of High explosives.

    b) Traps are not worth using. Traps are casted and do too little damage to be even worth using in pvp.

    c) Many of the charges are not worth using. At this point I might as well say it. The best rotation is 5 spike > 5 blast > 5 blast. This fails to incorporate the myriad of other charges that simply go unused. The old charge booster encouraged us to use one of each charge. In today's raiding environment that simply isn't possible because raid leaders won't want to lose their debuffs.

    d) Synergy crystal puts sab soul behind others. Sab is a competitive dps soul until synergy crystals from tier 1 and 2 raids are used. The synergy crystal for the sab soul is one of the worst in the game and is a big hinderance toward seeing more sabs "in the wild."

    e) Will it possible that the sab soul can get some love in the solo specs that many of us use in EI to grind mobs? I like many others find it very frustrating that Warriors and Clerics can chain pull endless amounts of mobs, whereas Mages and Rogues get penalized in the Exp/hour that we can grind by ourselves. Maybe Sab can be integrated here. Currently sab is not viable in soloing because our heals are based off of rift scavenger and leeching poison, both of which do not synergize with the saboteur soul.

    2) In regards to planar attunement allowing warriors to receive TWICE the benefit of rogues:
    From: http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ement-bug.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailion View Post
    Thank you for bringing this up.

    We will be investigating this further during patch 1.8 when we ensure that Warriors scale better with Attack Power, similar to how Rogues scale.

    Right now the comparison is not apples to apples and we would rather not make changes in haste right now when we plan on addressing related issues in the future.
    PROBLEM SOLVED!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailion View Post
    Rogue and Warrior weapon PA bonuses have been changed.

    Instead of increasing weapon DPS by 0.2 for every point invested in the weapon PA node, you will now get 2 Attack Power for every point invested with the weapon equipped in each weapon slot. The warrior’s 2H weapon mastery will give you an additional 2 AP per point invested. Whether you are dual wielding or using a 2H weapon, you will eventually get the same amount of AP bonuses.

    The AP bonuses are also added to your pet.

    These changes will be up in the test shard shortly.



    3) Energy concerns.

    1.7 changed the fundamentals of the warrior calling's energy regeneration and their power consumption in many abilities. At this time in 1.7 rogues are energy starved in many of the popular "top builds." such as assassin/rs and nightblade. Yes, even when using a bard in the raid for the "ferver" energy cost reduction buff and a tablet for increased energy regeneration. Warriors received the change to solve their energy concerns in 1.7. I am sure many rogues like myself are feeling a little left out and hoping for a similar change to solve our energy management issues.

    EDIT: Also with the combat culmination change in 1.7 I'm energy starved when solo/farming. This is really really super annoying. Either put energy return in rift scavenger or give us a blanket energy regeneration increase or energy cost decrease similar to warriors.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qan View Post
    Asking the wrong questions.




    Why are we the only class that needs tablets now?
    *4) Tank/bard

    I am not an avid tank, or "tank guru", but I am sure there are many rogues in the community that would be interested if there are any changes planned for ID's release. As it has already been stated by Zinbik that Justicars are getting looked at.

    I would love to add something from muffin911 on this issue. My understanding is that the main difference between rogues and the top tanks (warriors) is the gap in block/deflect ratings. From reports on the forums I think we are 20% behind in this area. Noting that future itemization will include +deflect for rogue tanking gear this may solve this issue entirely.

    In respect to the bard soul not much has been done to this soul since release. Most people want motifs to last longer and a cleanse/battle rez added to the soul. I would also guess that in following with aillion's previous changes we can expect to see more synergy in the bard soul. We are probably going to see some more tanking or dps points available in the bottom of the tree eventually.



    EDIT2: Rift scavenger


    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    Something is going to have to be done eventually. There are some glaring differences between self healing among the 4 callings. To compensate for this they've multiplied the heals from leeching poison FOUR TIMES. Yes, leeching poison heals FOUR TIMES as much as it used to. In future content they are either going to have to keep putting band aids on our self heals with leeching poison or take a step back and look at the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    What are you talking about?

    Clerics do get damage reduction in MoL via the increased armor ,but when they solo they use MoA in order to do the most damage and since their heals scale with their damage they get the most heals. This makes them the best solo/farmers in the game.

    Damage reduction has nothing to do with this. Why are you bringing it into the conversation?

    EDIT: Here is how people heal when they solo:
    clerics - http://rift.zam.com/en/ability/29356...tt=1/Salvation
    warriors - http://rift.zam.com/en/ability/57491...ental-Affinity
    mages - http://rift.zam.com/en/ability/12836...Radiant-Spores
    rogues - http://rift.zam.com/en/ability/76034...eeching-Poison AND http://rift.zam.com/en/ability/50000...Rift-Scavenger

    Our heals make us fight without using some of our main abilities in rift scavenger(doesn't synergize with marksman or sab) and leeching poison is inferior to the other 3 on damage passive heals because it is a fixed amount boosted little by attack power, and has an ICD. This means it has much less potential when it comes to self healing.



    The fact is that leeching poison is needed to farm in EI because it is the band-aid to our bad healing. Even with frag bomb not using cp's you would have to get a kill off of each detonation for this to heal you decently and even then you are going to lose on the constant dps you are not healing in between, not to mention times where mobs die before you can get 5 cps on them because it takes so damn long.
    More testing on rift scavenger. With hk gear on my damage from naked with lvl 1 weapons to bis gear goes up between 5-10x (depending on spec). My health only ends up being 1.5x as much more. Combining this with aoe and realizing the RS, PBOEA, and salvation have no ICD. The other three calling's self heals have increased at a significantly faster rate since launch than rogues. I'd like to see this corrected in some way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    My biggest gripe is that leeching poison has an ICD while PBOEA, Salvation, and Radiant spores do not.
    Leeching poison heals for a set amount and scales very little with ap(1 hp for 30ap or so) while PBOEA, Salvation, and Radiant spores do not.
    Rift scavenger forces us to fight with an arm tied behind our backs(by not using finishers) while PBOEA, Salvation, and Radiant spores do not.
    False blade requires us to cut our dps in half (by not using compound attack or deadly strike) while PBOEA, Salvation, and Radiant spores do not.
    EDIT3: DAGGERS!(not the stabby kind)


    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    Not every issue in this thread will be addressed. It has been read, we understand the issues as presented - that does not always mean we will make a changes based upon that presentation.

    I want to manage expectations regarding that and be very upfront.

    For example, there are no current plans to modify bards in the short term. There are no plans in the short term to add healing to the saboteur.

    We always read the feedback, and welcome suggestions - but not everything suggested or asked for will be implemented.

    ~Daglar
    Lead Game Designer: Rift
    Last edited by Zyzyx; 03-21-2012 at 02:14 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer Gyle's Avatar
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    I would like to see embers charge and splinter charge actually stack with other armor/magic debuffs. The biggest problem right now is they are useless in every way imaginable. Not only does a 5 stack put up a debuff that is less than the best of each kind from other classes, not only do the charges do very little damage, but they don't even stack?

    There has never been, and will never be a point to either one of those charge types until the debuffs stack, or you can apply the full debuff (which would have to be at least equal to other debuffs of it's kind) with only one charge. Personally i say leave them as is and just make the debuffs stack. Then Sabo turns into what it actually pretends to be, a support type soul with good AoE dps.

    It stuns forever, it snares, it silences, it debuffs everything possible, it sets traps for predictable situations. Now if only it actually did any of those things well enough to ever... actually do them. Plus make it a high AoE DPS soul and all of a sudden a good Sabo can make a significant impact on a raid. You would still only want one probably, but you would want at least one all the time, and you would really notice a good one.
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    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyle View Post
    apply the full debuff (which would have to be at least equal to other debuffs of it's kind) with only one charge.
    I think you are going to have to do something like this or turn them into bombs/finishers.

    For PAs I think the best way is to remove the mace hex and add some combination of +ap, 1h dps increase, and combining the ranged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  4. #4
    Sword of Telara Gynxz's Avatar
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    Have ember/splinter last 30-60secs and be able to refresh ALL stacks with just 1 charge after that like some of the archon debuffs (Pill stone, Searing Vit, Rock slide). Then have Frag bomb spread all Sab effects to up to 10 targets.

    Ex I Matron fight you will have both debuffs running on the boss, when a book is about to be clicked.. you do a 5xspike rotation followed by a 5xBlast and Frag as adds come up. Spreading both debufs+spike+blast dots.

    As long as targets are close, target swapping wont be horrible. For trash you can pre-load and for bosses you wont have much down time on Aoe.

  5. #5
    Plane Touched Louiscipher's Avatar
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    Give em hell zyzyx

    I will not be happy until we do 6000 dps unbuffed
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    Rift Chaser Kaliguwra's Avatar
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    For Sabo's, make the charge debuffs stack with other classes to effect the entire raid and make bombs/traps useful.

    Bards; cleanse and battle rez. Longer Motif duration or rework tree abilities to allow a 51p bard to have a 20% chance per combo point used in a finisher to refresh motifs. Make their two debuffs stack or change them to something else.

    Ranger; makes pets worthy of using. Allow shared stats or percentage shared stats. 50% would be an improvement. Buff pet damage considerably.

    Rework greater essences to be useful for all rogue souls.

  7. #7
    Plane Walker Enaki's Avatar
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    My latest iteration of Sab ideas. Most of the ideas are around improving Quality of Life and adding a bit more spice/variety to the Soul along with some pure DPS improvements. And yes I realize that most of these would require some trade offs like existing damage tweaks and/or losing Deadly Dance Synergy (YAY!) or High Explosives (could be YAY if Sab is not so dependent on it for damage in deep builds).
    • Passives
      • Charge Booster: Change from "bonus weapons blast" to a new passive that applies two charges/CP per applied charge. Leave the "executable" cap at 5 with the "6th" charge overwriting the first (so for example if you apply Spike, Blast, Blast you would end up with 1 spice charge and four blasts). Move further up into the tree if necessary. This shortening of the charge rotation allows you to add in bombs as part of the standard rotations to spice it up so it's not "click one button 5 times, detonate, click a different button 5 times, detonate, repeat". That is provided if you don't want to clip Residual (which I think we should not want to which means it might need a boost).
      • Demolition Specialist: Change from spreading Blast/Spike with Anni Bomb to an AP bonus for Charges, Bombs and Traps for points spent in Sab soul. This should hopefully prevent us from having to come back next raid tier and having this conversation again.
      • Silent Setup: Please, please leave alone. Not that I think it's on the chopping block, but I think it's worth mentioning the things we don't want to see go away.
    • Bombs
      • Change Charge Debuffs to Bombs: Change Embers and Splinter to Bombs that apply an AoE Debuff. They are effectively useless in their current form due to how long they take to apply and how easy they are overwritten by faster applier abilities
      • Add an off GCD "reaction/proc" Bomb: Replace Landmines and replace it with an off GCD Bomb with a short cool down (5 to 8 seconds) that has X% chance to become available for use when applying Charges (kind of like Pyro Armor).
      • Chemical Bomb: Change from placing a carpet effect (like Adhesive Bomb) to either a standard bomb or a carpet effect placed around the target. (Wishful thinking to tie into a Synergy Crystal suggestion).
      • Cooldowns: Change the recasts on Bombs to be what you want them to be given a 4 GCD Detonate Cycle with two GCDs open for Bombs. Time Bomb is fine, lower Frag to be an option and then you are potentially using Chemical/Frag/Time/Anni based on refresh/CDs
    • Traps
      • Change into "Openers": My suggestion would be to make traps more like Stealth Attacks. Abilities that were meant to be used once at the beginning of fight. Leave in the cooldowns but significantly boost the damage and or effects. The one exception I would make on Cooldowns is to put CC and Dmg traps on separate shared cooldown pools
    • "Blast" Enhancements: For flavor trade out some of the least used existing abilities (like Debilitating Trap and Concussion Charge) for some form of "Blast" Enhancements. A few examples
      • Efficient Explosives: Procs power back to the Sab on Detonation (maybe more power per mob hit)
      • Chain Reaction: Small AoE Proc (similar to Beckman's Ricochet idea) that could trigger per exploded charge/bomb, per mob hit. The idea would be to make this the AoE fight choice and have it scale well with increased mob count.
      • Degrading Armor: Procs a stackable (maybe 3 stacks) DoT that increases damage per stack. Work to be the preferred single target Enhancement.
      • Disorientation: Procs a snare for our PVP brethren
    • Soul Synergy
      • To open up the lower end of Sab:
        • Make Charges and Bomb range either 30 meters standard or just say Sab is supposed to be a mid range range at best.
        • As mentioned above adjust down Bomb recasts.
        • This frees up 10 points that can be used for more generic passives
      • Ideas for replacement (definitely not the best, just ideas that came to me while thinking about this)
        • Battled Hardened: Sab is used to being caught in explosions so they take X% less physical damage.
        • Studied Application: Improves Weapon Enhancement Proc rates by X%
    • Synergy Crystals
      • Change T1 4pc/T2 2pc set bonus to increase Charge and Bomb damage by X% if Chemical is active on mob.
      • Add to the T2 4pc set bonus to either decrease the cool down or to extend the duration of Incriminate in addition to the current 4pc bonus.
    • Random additional Quality of Life Improvements
      • Weapon Specialist: Let Sab's have natively without having to pick up MM or Ranger
      • Time Bomb: Treat like Pyro's Count Down and show the time remaining. Just a minor QoL change.
    The idea behind these suggestions is to give Sabs a DPS bump but at the same time liven up the rotations and get Bombs back into regular play through Debuffs, Reactions and rotation fillers. Just improving AE damage I think would be a shame and leave people just as frustrated with the soul due to it's "boring" rotation and make raiders more resentful if they have to play it for certain encounters.

    Telarans on class balance: Rock is overpowered. Paper is fine. - Scissors

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    Would be interesting to see what happens.
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  9. #9
    Ascendant charliekelly's Avatar
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    preemptive sab still sucks post.

  10. #10
    Telaran FishBlaster's Avatar
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    oh sabo how i love thee.

    step one
    better charge damage.

    step two
    stop buffing up bombs. its its not obvious to the devs by now they are for the most part useless.

    step 3
    ignore traps they suck they dont work for anything outside of pvp and even then they suck. would be best to remove them all together but that might be to much work.

    step 4
    better soul synergy
    charges get almost no good effects from other souls. there are a few good effects but they are few and far.


    okay bombs. they do the same things that other skills in other souls but other souls do it so much better.

    lets take each bomb one at a time.

    adhesive bomb. 70% movement speed for 8 seconds. [must be aimed]
    now this would be a good bomb if it didnt have to be aimed and simply hit the area around the target.

    fragmentation bomb. damage +weapon bonus to 10 enemys.
    good bomb but underpowered and pointless. after all shrapnel charges do the same thing in to just as many targets but with more damage.

    chemical bomb. damage over time bomb that again needs to be aimed
    its one of the few bombs i like. if only you didnt have to aim it and just hit your target with it and let it do splash damage near the target.

    chocking gas. area wide mute.
    good bomb but needs to be aimed. again make it splash damage around the target and it might be more usefull.

    im not even gonna bother messing with traps.

    as for charges just tweek the effects of each one a bit to bring them inline with other souls that do the same thing.

    such as
    splinter charge. it debuffs the target by 108 armor per charge.
    other souls like ranger do this with 1 skill in 1 second where it takes the sabo 6 seconds to do the same thing with less damage and less armor removed.

    so give it more damage and more armor removed per charge.

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  11. #11
    Ascendant Gunzip's Avatar
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    It should be interesting to see how Sab turns out in patch 1.8, I'm guessing it will end up ok in pve but severely lackluster in pvp. Either way, I would not mind a good pve sab build.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I believe Assassin DoTs are uncleansable.

    It's still a terrible PvP spec compared to Marksman, though.

  12. #12
    Plane Touched Cerium's Avatar
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    1) Sabs
    I am not a Sab expert. I've not delved very deep into them, but I did like Gyle's overarching tone to his recommendation.

    It might be nice to see them as a secondary support class. No other calling has two support souls, maybe this would give our calling a bit more variation.

    It may even help solve some of the bard issues if there was a good synergy between them. BD is doing a nice amount of melee AoE now and We have strong ST ranged and melee builds (not perfect but strong). I like the idea of making the Sab a ranged AoE support type soul.

    One thing is for certain in Gyle's response. It needs to be built in such a way that you'll always want at least one in a raid and his presence should be noticed or missed.

    2) PAs
    They need some work, but i'm not in favor of whitewashing them by removing the different weapon hexes.

    Here's a crazy idea, lets combine number 2 and number 3.
    First Lets consolidate the DPS hexes from each tree like OP suggests
    Second Lets remove the silly bonuses to unmounted run speed, dead soul movement, etc from each tree and replace them with something like:
    "Autoattcks with <WEAPONTYPE> regenerate 1 energy per hit"
    Then having different weapons still matters (i personally like that weapon choice matters otherwise we all may as well be fighting with petrified poodles) and it can be tuned to properly affect energy regen.

    4)tanks/bards
    I think fixing sab to give bard some synergy would help a lot. I feel a lot of the QQing about bards comes from people who just don't like playing a bard! The only real complaint is the 20m range on cadence.

    As for tanks I feel they're pretty well off, especially if there is some +deflect coming on ID gear (which i recommended WAY back when we started with deflect)
    Last edited by Cerium; 02-08-2012 at 05:44 AM.
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  13. #13
    Ascendant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    c) Many of the charges are not worth using. At this point I might as well say it. The best rotation is 5 spike > 5 blast > 5 blast. This fails to incorporate the myriad of other charges that simply go unused. The old charge booster encouraged us to use one of each charge. In today's raiding environment that simply isn't possible because raid leaders won't want to lose their debuffs.
    .
    THIS 1000x. I NEVER EVER understood the change to charge booster. It was perfect as it was, it rewarded good playstyle.

    I though, dont see sab as AE Damage Dealer, i see him as high burst single damage finishing class. Waiting for a target to fall beyong xxx hp and BOOM destroy it. Thats what a saboteur is for me, one who times his attack well and then is capable of doing best burst in game and destroy that target FOR SURE.

    The problem is with the players though, they dont understand this concept well, what has lead to LOTS of whining without any argument based on facts. People dont like to die, and a class who kills them (instantly if well timed) will allway be a subject to massive qq, and thats very sad.

    Roque in General needs some Energy Cost Fixing. e.g. ae dmg port costs less energy then single dmg. port. Overall costs should be reduced slightly.

  14. #14
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    With aillion working on debuff priority for armor debuffs I think sab is going to have 1 less thing holding it back!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  15. #15
    Plane Walker Enaki's Avatar
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    Unless it's higher number than a full Exposure Piercing it's still going to be subpar due to the build time to apply it. The other way to make it useful would be to make it an AoE debuff.
    Telarans on class balance: Rock is overpowered. Paper is fine. - Scissors

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