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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: State of the rogue (pre-1.7)

  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    Going to use this thread to post relevant information about the upcoming changes for the rogue calling and explain them to the common rogue.

    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ml#post3495457

    Here Aillion posts what the initial changes for 1.7 will be.

    To summarize:

    Aillion performed a miracle and made blade dancer and ranger viable dps specs.

    nightblade and assasin are getting barely noticeable changes in their weapon enhancements. (I gained 10 damage between live and pts with near BiS gear.)

    This has recently been edited to contain the contents of this post(WHICH IS AMAZING!):
    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ml#post3522094

    Blade dancer AoE finisher now higher aoe dps than the single target finisher!

    Assasin major bug decreasing our dps fixed.

    Nightblade dusk to dawn changed making the rotation much much easier to use and better overall.

    Then we have this unfortunate bit of news:
    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ml#post3519662

    It is sad that our Planar attunement will not be balanced immediately ,but good to know that the devs know about it and will fix it in the future. The planar attunement issue is deep and complex. We shouldn't be so unreasonable as to demand that the devs fix this in a time frame that would cause them to lose sleep.

    Some posts by the warrior dev that I feel effect us:

    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ml#post3519662

    and

    http://forums.riftgame.com/official-...ded-1-7-a.html

    Will the change in physical dps include changes to rogue physical dps in pvp?
    Currently I hit a warrior for about 250-500 damage in pvp with an akylios relic gun and close to 400 planar attunement levels. Personally, it doesn't seem possible to increase warrior damage and survivability in pvp without making them far too powerful against rogues(again).

    Why is warrior energy regen most likely going to get buffed while rogue energy regeneration is getting nerfed in regards to the combat culmination change? Will rogues get compensated with new energy abilities in other trees or can the energy return portion of the combat culmination ability be rolled into an ability like rift scavenger or leeching poison?

    Overall there are some great changes on the horizon for rogues in 1.7 ,but some problems still remain.

    1. Saboteur is still extinct as a soul. I know many people still feel resentment at being forced into sabdancer for so long ,but some of us really enjoy the style of the saboteur soul. In its current state using saboteur is a detriment to your raid in the amount of damage you bring to your raid. Hopefully some large changes can be made in time to make this soul viable in time for 1.7.

    The easiest fix here is to change the rogue synergy crystal to effect residual shrapnel and high explosives two of the largest damage contributers of the soul. Currently the saboteur synergy crystal is easily one of the worst synergy crystals in the game.

    2. Rogue AoE dps is pitiful. Perhaps any solution to saboteur or the change to compound attack will change this.

    I recommend changing fan out to a combo point generator and crossfire to an aoe finisher. Ranger's Concussive blast should be adjusted into a more useful aoe finisher as well, even if it needs to lose its interrupt capability. Nightblade could use a new finisher for this purpose as well.

    3. Marksman was overnerfed in 1.6. Marksman came in 1.5 and amazed us all that it could do competitive dps with other callings after long being the red headed step child of the rogue callings. 1.6 reduced the synergy crystal bonus of EM and removed the proc from IQS.

    The synergy crystal should be returned to 50% bonus to EM damage since daglar has stated that the devs felt the iqs and em relationship was too powerful.

    4. Leeching poison still not strong enough. I'd love for this to become an alternative to rift scavenger instead of a supplement while leveling or grinding pve. Due to ICD and poor scaling(yes even after the two buffs). Something similar to salvation or BoEA.

    Obviously any real changes would need to be done in such a way so as to not make leeching overpowered in pvp.

    TL;DR: Nice changes so far. Roll combat culmination energy regen into rift scavenger we are super energy starved when farming now and give fanout cps and make cross fire an aoe finisher

    then spend like a week fixing sab
    some comments:

    1. You shouldn't need a synergy crystal to do competitive dps/hps or whatever. I consider the 4pc HK and syn crystals to be a design flaw because of how much of a difference it does make.

    2. The regen change to wars is a bit silly. Melee rouges are just as energy starved. But lets say every class doesn't need to worry about energy. Then what is the point of ferver or VoJ?

    3. As pointed out already, the armor changes won't have too much effect on rogues. About 1/2 the damage from sin and marks is elemental. All of Bard and almost all of NB and sab is elemental. So that levees dancer and range/pet? I agree that physical dps needs a boost or change, but this has been known since day 1 that the way to go was elemental.(maybe not for wars, but was for rogues) and I admit, it a bit frustrating for a war to pull out a 4k+ armor level shield in a dps spec in pvp.

    4. with the changes to planar attunment and the removal of the pvp soul. I don't see any need to go into the PvP PA if you are running a build that doesn't require the pvp soul. You get better damage and survivability in other trees. This is partly because Rift stalker is such a good soul to use in a pvp build.
    I havn't seen anyone else us anathema in a long time.

  2. #137
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnowHeart View Post
    some comments:

    1. You shouldn't need a synergy crystal to do competitive dps/hps or whatever. I consider the 4pc HK and syn crystals to be a design flaw because of how much of a difference it does make.

    2. The regen change to wars is a bit silly. Melee rouges are just as energy starved. But lets say every class doesn't need to worry about energy. Then what is the point of ferver or VoJ?

    3. As pointed out already, the armor changes won't have too much effect on rogues. About 1/2 the damage from sin and marks is elemental. All of Bard and almost all of NB and sab is elemental. So that levees dancer and range/pet? I agree that physical dps needs a boost or change, but this has been known since day 1 that the way to go was elemental.(maybe not for wars, but was for rogues) and I admit, it a bit frustrating for a war to pull out a 4k+ armor level shield in a dps spec in pvp.

    4. with the changes to planar attunment and the removal of the pvp soul. I don't see any need to go into the PvP PA if you are running a build that doesn't require the pvp soul. You get better damage and survivability in other trees. This is partly because Rift stalker is such a good soul to use in a pvp build.
    I havn't seen anyone else us anathema in a long time.
    1. agreed

    2. I don't care if we need ferver or voj in raid ,but I'd like to not be energy starved when doing chronicles/quests and solo content. Combat culmination in its current form does that for us. Now that it is being changed I feel rogues are going to be in a bad spot energy wise in these situations.

    3. Sab is all physical except for embers charge iirc. BD is still bad on pts and no one should really ever use ranger in pvp. =/

    4.PvP PA is really good as it allows me to use STM and still have a heal debuff in marksman. Cleanse soul on every pvp specand 30 seconds off cd of break free is nice too.

    The things that really stick out on the pvp pa are the "on dodge" hex and the 5% mount speed hex. Those just don't belong. We don't dodge much if ever in pvp and 5% mount speed is nice I guess ,but I'd rather have something more pvp oriented in its place.
    Last edited by Zyzyx; 01-22-2012 at 12:52 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  3. #138
    RIFT Guide Writer Gyle's Avatar
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    Zyzyx i think you are the only person i have ever heard of giving a damn about combat culmination.
    Hastati (50 warrior), Tsar (50 cleric), Tsaritsa (50 Mage)
    Guides: 51 Bladedancer, Bloodstalker, Nightblade
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    5/8 ID; HK Conqueror

  4. #139
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyle View Post
    Zyzyx i think you are the only person i have ever heard of giving a damn about combat culmination.
    Just because I'm the only one posting about it does not mean I am the only one who will be affected.
    Last edited by Zyzyx; 01-22-2012 at 01:32 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  5. #140
    Sword of Telara Gynxz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyle View Post
    Zyzyx i think you are the only person i have ever heard of giving a damn about combat culmination.
    Well, it energizes great with Rift scavenger in farm spec. With that said, I usually use DS unless I actually need a heal which is rare on the farm spec.

  6. #141
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gynxz View Post
    Well, it energizes great with Rift scavenger in farm spec. With that said, I usually use DS unless I actually need a heal which is rare on the farm spec.
    Which is why I think the energy return should be rolled in with rift scavenger.
    Last edited by Zyzyx; 01-22-2012 at 02:10 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  7. #142
    Sword of Telara Gynxz's Avatar
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    yeah, funny that warriors energy is being looked at because "Oh my God spamming Aoe Attacks all the time drains my energy!" :P

  8. #143
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    Not that it matters at this point...

    Guild proved tonight that you only need two rogues for Aky and that is stretching it. One MM and one Bard-dancer.

    Anyone know if Arresting Presence works on Apostles? We might be completely out of a job if it does.

    Time to scrap the calling and carry six Bard specs. At least you won't have to fight any other rogues for loot being the only one in raid...
    _____Reversecowbell | R50 Cleric___Lesscowbell | R80 Mage___Moarcowbell | R50 Rogue_____

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    Just because I'm the only one posting about it does not mean I am the only one who will be affected.
    CC is basically worthless. If energy is that much of an issue in your farm spec, you are doing it wrong.

  10. #145
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    CC is basically worthless. If energy is that much of an issue in your farm spec, you are doing it wrong.
    I'd love to know how you farm PA's then.

    What spec did you use while leveling?

    So far the only people I've seen rationalize the CC nerf with statements like this are not using the rogue calling to it's potential.
    Last edited by Zyzyx; 01-23-2012 at 02:27 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  11. #146
    Plane Touched Taleon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    I'd love to know how you farm PA's then.

    What spec did you use while leveling?

    So far the only people I've seen rationalize the CC nerf with statements like this are not using the rogue calling to it's potential.
    Lol, Zy,
    You and I have discussed CC in game. We both run close to the same farm spec, with a few tweeks to our personal liking. You use CC, and I do not. We both have a kill rate, and xp gain close to the same as well as very close to the same level of gear. Just because one uses CC and one does not does not mean that "your" spec is using the calling to it's potential. Much of it is preference, I do not find it as useful, there for do not use it, and achieve just as much.

    The nerf up and coming to CC I do not see as a huge issue. In it's current state, I can see how it is useful, I just do not find it needed in my build, nor my rotations to keep up energy.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    I'd love to know how you farm PA's then.
    Sourcewells or mobs. Either works, both give over 2 PA per hour.

    What spec did you use while leveling?
    Not going to give the specs I use out, but if energy is an issue, you are doing it wrong. Here's a hint, if the majority of your DPS comes from using energy while grinding, you are doing it wrong.

    So far the only people I've seen rationalize the CC nerf with statements like this are not using the rogue calling to it's potential.
    I would argue that people spending points on CC currently are the ones who don't know what they are doing and certainly aren't using the rogue calling to its full potential. Given the possible point spreads, using any points in CC is a PA/hr loss.

  13. #148
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    Yup Durrango just wastes his time upgrading the sourcewells so the turrets kill mobs while he just tags them. Thats even slower.
    Last edited by Vindicit; 01-23-2012 at 12:15 PM.

  14. #149
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    just wanted to add this

    with energy being less of an issue in 1.7 bards are even less worth while. +12 stats +5% stats... come on trion... make the debuffs stack or something. No one wants to be the bard already. Make them worth having.

  15. #150
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adnoz View Post
    without tablet, and it was closer to 100 than 10.
    I can't really test at all on PTS right now though, eurolag at 200ms + the server keeps freezing for 5-10 seconds , will have to do some tomorrow.
    I'm hearing with tablet BS is 200 ahead of BD. 100 without tablet sounds reasonably close considering BD is a lot less energy starved. BD might have some potential though, I keep wondering if it can be optimized to be closer to BS. In the same way BS was tweaked and optimized to be where it is now, maybe BD has room to get a little higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaireSurrender View Post
    Not that it matters at this point...

    Guild proved tonight that you only need two rogues for Aky and that is stretching it. One MM and one Bard-dancer.

    Anyone know if Arresting Presence works on Apostles? We might be completely out of a job if it does.

    Time to scrap the calling and carry six Bard specs. At least you won't have to fight any other rogues for loot being the only one in raid...
    It's been like this for a while, although ranged rogues have a role doing interrupts and are able to take orb hits while doing ranged.

    I disagree that 1.7 will make things worse. If anything, ST dps amongst the classes seems to be almost equal. Mages slightly nerfed, warriors increased along with clerics and rogues. Everyone seems to be coming up with around the sameish numbers for ST dps.

    Only issue is BS has 0 aoe, and for other classes like warriors their best ST dps spec is their best aoe spec. Rogues will still have a role, and things will be greatly improved but we won't be ideal. It will be close enough, I hope, that the player and gear will matter more then character creation choice.

    Myself I'm going to focus on playing BD, and see if I can play with the rotation and spec to get the most out of it. The combination of ST and good AoE dps makes it feel like a complete class, rather then a teleporting tanky dot heavy spec with no aoe.

    If the goal of 1.7 was to equalize dps amongst the classes... we're probably worse off then we should be because BS is out there. Otherwise they'd have buffed other specs to BS numbers.
    Last edited by Mayi; 01-23-2012 at 02:37 PM.
    I rite a gooded guide for rouges.

    NB-Sin Guide - http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...-sin-spec.html

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