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Thread: Dev Clarification for Rogue Melee vs Range

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    Plane Walker Enaki's Avatar
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    Default Dev Clarification for Rogue Melee vs Range

    With the upcoming changes hitting test would it be possible to get one of the Dev's to lay out what the team's expectation for Rogue Melee DPS vs Ranged DPS are. While I know specific parse ranges are unrealistic to give, and could be skewed by gear/skill/buffs, it would be incredibly helpful for us to understand if the team wants the numbers to be about the same, or for melee to be higher or something else entirely. And if they want them to be different are we talking significant differences or a 5 to 10% difference?

    While knowing this will not quiet any noise on the part of the community for why their point of view should be the one used, it will at least give us the proper point of reference for testing and help us understand what is "out of whack" and what is "working as intended".
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    He's never gonna post. You know that.
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    Why would a banana grab another banana? I mean, those are the kind of questions I donít want to answer.

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    Koe
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    Melee should always be higher than Range until the mechanics of fights say otherwise.
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    Plane Walker Enaki's Avatar
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    Europe: We'll see. I won't be surprised if this does not get a response, but at the same time it's a valid question and I don't think we're being unreasonable in asking.

    Koe: The problem is man that you and half of the rogues can line up on one side and say that, and everyone else can line up and say they should be the same and it simply doesn't matter. The only opinion that matters right now is the Devs (no offense).
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    Koe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enaki View Post
    Koe: The problem is man that you and half of the rogues can line up on one side and say that, and everyone else can line up and say they should be the same and it simply doesn't matter. The only opinion that matters right now is the Devs (no offense).
    This is wrong, because logic is a finite thing.

    Logic would dictate that if Range had a greater ease of use, uptime, and the ability to dodge mechanics easier then Melee would have to do more damage to be equal during the above circumstances.


    When mechanics make ranged and melee lose the same amount of DPS, then you can argue they should be equal.
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    And people could just as easily say that they should be the same and encounters should be designed to where melee and ranged (since that is all of mages) both have problems to deal with. But regardless I'm not going to get into an argument with you. You have your thoughts/opinions based on logic/emotions/whatever. And it's entirely possible that you are right. But you're not Allion/Sweets/Daglar/<insert any other purple name that designs/codes and has commented on our class> and this thread was designed to get them to lay down their intentions so people can stop having this argument and we can then test with the right set of expectations.
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    Koe
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    To clarify;

    Range does need a slight boost in so much that on fights like Zilas, Matron, Inquisitor, etc they do equal damage to melee; But on fights like Sicaron, Grug, Estrode, etc. melee should be superior.
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    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Tuning versus other callings isnít as much a competiton as it is a balancing act. Overall we
    want the various callings to be competitive with each other in their comparative roles. There
    isnít a mandate that Rogues do more damage than Warriors or that Mages be the best ranged
    damage in the game. Ideally we would like to see players with equivalent skill, gear, planar
    attunement, buffs etc be equally effective at damage, tanking or healing.

    doesn't say anything bout range vs melee

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    Tuning versus other callings isn’t as much a competiton as it is a balancing act. Overall we
    want the various callings to be competitive with each other in their comparative roles. There
    isn’t a mandate that Rogues do more damage than Warriors or that Mages be the best ranged
    damage in the game. Ideally we would like to see players with equivalent skill, gear, planar
    attunement, buffs etc be equally effective at damage, tanking or healing.

    doesn't say anything bout range vs melee
    I keep seeing a lot of people using "competetive" as a reason for a damage boost or reduction, when talking about PvE encounters.

    You're not competing with anyone in PvE; we don't need competetive, we need comparible.

    Nothing should be balanced around a single encounter, ever. A fraction of a percentage of content is not how they balance anything, and EVERYTHING has to be taken into consideration. I wish people would stop using a single encounter, that not every person, and that doesn't work like the magority of the content in the game, to argue what needs to be fixed and what doesn't.

    There are so many other factors involved in this game that all you guys that think everything should revolve around a single aspect are half the reason games like Rift ends up messed up in the first place.

    Tanking souls should be able to tank. Damage should only be considered when one class has a distinct advantage over another during the course of REGULAR PLAY, that is PvE or PvP content that the MAGORITY of the playerbase experiences; not a single encounter. If one tank soul is able to tank and deal considerably more damage then every other tank soul then it needs to be fixed. Threat generation, and the ability to tank in the proper settings should be equal across the board.

    DPS should be balanced based on the survivability of the soul, not whether or not another soul does more damage then the next. If a dps soul has the ability to mitigate more damage then other dps souls, while dealing more damage, then it needs to be fixed. The highest damage dealing soul should be the one that mitigates the least amount of damage.

    Being melee does not ever mean you should do more damage, no more then being ranged does. A melee rogue has the ability to reduce the amount of damage they take in melee range, their damage should be based on that.

    Encounter should be designed to put ranged dps in as much danger as melee dps.

    Ranged rogue dps isn't supposed to be getting hit any more then mage dps is, but ranged rogues have more options to mitigate the damage they take, either through increasesd HP, the ability to completely dodge atacks, better absorbtion shields, and increased speed then any of the caster souls; they don't need more damage when they have better damge mitigation. If the ability to utilize that damage mitigation isn't being brought into play during certian encounters then it's the encounter that is the problem, not the soul.

    Melee rogues are supposed to get hit, and they also have the ability to mitigate damage better then any mage soul; with the obvious excpetion being chloro.

    I have my rouge and mage to the same point gear wise, and my rogue has considerably more survivability then any soul my mage has; with the obvious exception being chloro.

    Balance is not done based on where you stand, it's done based on damage output vs the ability to mitigate incoming damage, and rogues are better at mitigating damage then mages and therefore should not be doing the same amount of damage; otherwise rogues become unbalanced.


    Melee rogue AoE needs a boost, it's abismal.
    Threat generation across all tank souls needs to equalized, no one tank class should generate more threat then the next.
    Last edited by Fariic; 01-02-2012 at 11:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    This is wrong, because logic is a finite thing.

    Logic would dictate that if Range had a greater ease of use, uptime, and the ability to dodge mechanics easier then Melee would have to do more damage to be equal during the above circumstances.


    When mechanics make ranged and melee lose the same amount of DPS, then you can argue they should be equal.
    And where does Way of the Mountain fit in that logic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akizuki View Post
    And where does Way of the Mountain fit in that logic?
    Well, you know, rogues running around in mm / nb and having to dodge waves offer vastly superior dps compared to...

    ... oh wait. nevermind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    Well, you know, rogues running around in mm / nb and having to dodge waves offer vastly superior dps compared to...

    ... oh wait. nevermind.
    While they have the longest range, mitigate more physical damage then mages, can AoE while moving, can knockback while AoEing, can reduce armour rating while AoEing to increase thier damage, have almost constant speed increase, and also have a single stat that doesn't just boost damage, but also boosts passive damage mitigation.

    I know mages can do the same thing.
    ... oh wait. nevermind.

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    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fariic View Post
    While they have the longest range, mitigate more physical damage then mages, can AoE while moving, can knockback while AoEing, can reduce armour rating while AoEing to increase thier damage, have almost constant speed increase, and also have a single stat that doesn't just boost damage, but also boosts passive damage mitigation.

    I know mages can do the same thing.
    ... oh wait. nevermind.
    I was talking about warriors with way of the mountain.

    But hey, i'll play this game.

    Mentioning half of those useless things you just did kind of invalidates your point anyway.

    Because, you know, there are all those mobs that are positioned WAAAAY the heck out there that you can't reach from the middle of the platform.

    And that awesome extra physical mitigation that'll let you survive getting hit by Jornaru? no... wait... A lasher? hmm, probably not... Any trash mob outside of the mana pinchers? not really likely. I know! It helps on all the water damage! oh wait.

    You guys really pull trailing packs of trash mobs in a raid so that you need to AoE while moving to keep up with the tanks? I'm extremely jealous and wish to be part of your guild, because you're just so much better than us. I mean, its not like you can drop your ground based AoE in front of the pack or where you know they'll be going or anything. That's just absurd.

    AoE knockback! There's a gem that'll piss your tanks off and possibly wipe your raid. You have -no- idea. Try it sometime. Stand in front of a pack of mobs your warrior is tanking and knock it back behind them without saying a word. Watch that damage spike and their HP drop! Woo!

    AoE armor reduction! Way to gimp your raid's dps for a small bit of padding on your own parse. It overwrites more potent armor reduction from other skills. But you knew that already.

    Dex -> dodge? Dodge being useful on a dps? Oh man. I have to stop to get a drink of water. That's comedic gold right there. You would either have to be the '**** that facepulled, or have an incompetent tank for a mob to be coming after you. And then you have a 1 in 9 chance of maybe dodging, if its physical. It might as well not exist. In either case its player fault.

    Well that was fun, even if my original post wasn't even directed at mages. Its nice to be reminded every once in a while about how little some folks know about other classes and just go off on assuming things based on partial knowledge.

    Tell you what. I'll trade you ALL of those awesome rogue perks for your spot as the current highest single target dps with respectable, if unused, AoE capability.

    Edit: I'll even throw in a cookie.
    Last edited by MoonfireSpam; 01-02-2012 at 03:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    Melee should always be higher than Range until the mechanics of fights say otherwise.
    Disagree.

    The argument that melee is harder is a complete nonsense. raiding rogues use both specs. one is not harder or more at risk than the other, and there should be no difference in the dps output.

    Standing in cleaves or fire is stupid behaviour whether its melee or range.

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    Plane Touched Fariic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    I was talking about warriors with way of the mountain.

    But hey, i'll play this game.

    Mentioning half of those useless things you just did kind of invalidates your point anyway.

    Because, you know, there are all those mobs that are positioned WAAAAY the heck out there that you can't reach from the middle of the platform.

    And that awesome extra physical mitigation that'll let you survive getting hit by Jornaru? no... wait... A lasher? hmm, probably not... Any trash mob outside of the mana pinchers? not really likely. I know! It helps on all the water damage! oh wait.

    You guys really pull trailing packs of trash mobs in a raid so that you need to AoE while moving to keep up with the tanks? I'm extremely jealous and wish to be part of your guild, because you're just so much better than us. I mean, its not like you can drop your ground based AoE in front of the pack or where you know they'll be going or anything. That's just absurd.

    AoE knockback! There's a gem that'll piss your tanks off and possibly wipe your raid. You have -no- idea. Try it sometime. Stand in front of a pack of mobs your warrior is tanking and knock it back behind them without saying a word. Watch that damage spike and their HP drop! Woo!

    AoE armor reduction! Way to gimp your raid's dps for a small bit of padding on your own parse. It overwrites more potent armor reduction from other skills. But you knew that already.

    Dex -> dodge? Dodge being useful on a dps? Oh man. I have to stop to get a drink of water. That's comedic gold right there. You would either have to be the '**** that facepulled, or have an incompetent tank for a mob to be coming after you. And then you have a 1 in 9 chance of maybe dodging, if its physical. It might as well not exist. In either case its player fault.

    Well that was fun, even if my original post wasn't even directed at mages. Its nice to be reminded every once in a while about how little some folks know about other classes and just go off on assuming things based on partial knowledge.

    Tell you what. I'll trade you ALL of those awesome rogue perks for your spot as the current highest single target dps with respectable, if unused, AoE capability.

    Edit: I'll even throw in a cookie.
    You seem to live in ths world were the only content that anyone does involves 19 other people.

    Guess what, contrary to what some people seem to think. They don't balance based entirely on encounters in a raid. They also do it based on every other aspect of the game.

    You're funny.
    If you're willing to give up all your rogue survivability to have the highest ST dps, why aren't you playing a mage? The mechanics are a lot like playing MM or RNG, but without the combo points and all the added endurance and HP boosting skills in the souls.

    Explain to me why almost every rogue soul has options to boost things like HP, end, dodge, there's even more damage reduction skills scattered through the rogue souls then the mage ones.

    My mage does a bunch of damage but dies really fast, and can't take near the hits that my rogue does.
    My rogue does good damage, but takes longer to die, and can mitigate more damage then my mage can.

    Anyone who says that rogues are as squishy as mages is lying.
    Anyone that says a mage is as durable as a rogue is lying.
    There's a trade off. Mages do not mitigate damage anything close to the effectiveness that rogues do. Why do you think both of the dot souls for mages have health components tied to them? Without it those mages would never live long enough to see the dot kill anything. Then you got Archon, doesn't do squat for damage, but it does increase survivability. Chloro, low damage, lots of healing. Pyro and storm? Yeah, both of them do lots of damage, and offer no (storm) or next to no (pyro's 50% dmg absorb shield for sub 700 dmg) survivability.

    Rogues though? Show me a single rogue soul that doesn't have one skill to mitigate damage in it. There isn't one. In fact most of the souls offer multiple ways to avoid damage. Every rogue soul offers some way to either reduce damge, or avoid it completely.

    You can't downplay it. It's an integral part of the class.

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