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Thread: Super easy sab AoE fix

  1. #1
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    Default Super easy sab AoE fix

    Easiest way to buff sab, but prevent people from using sab as both an AoE and a single target spec, is to make it scale with number of targets. So when you detonate a shrapnel charge, for each target struck, the damage is increased to ALL taggets. Seems like its easy to code and would make Sab viable in some situations but not OP in all situations.
    Last edited by Rowanze; 01-02-2012 at 06:34 AM.

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    Plane Walker Enaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowanze View Post
    Easiest way to buff sab, but prevent people from using sab as both an AoE and a single target spec, is to make it scale with number of targets. So when you detonate a shrapnel charge, for each target struck, the damage is increased to ALL taggets. Seems like its easy to code and would make Sab viable in some situations but not OP in all situations.
    Easier fix. Change High Explosives to work on all Targets, but have it do less damage on the additional targets. Not sure which is easier to code, but this would at least be easier to predict the results on.
    Telarans on class balance: Rock is overpowered. Paper is fine. - Scissors

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    Something that hurts Sab AoE is using a single target detonate that eats a GCD. Plus the charges dont do a whole lot of damage when you look at Warriors AoE. All Rogue finishers should be simmilar where Detonate only does like 20% more damage then a charge if that.
    Last edited by Vindicit; 01-02-2012 at 08:17 AM.

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    The issue I thought was always the DoT component. Could they not just increase the AE damage back to where it was, remove the DoT from shrapnel charge then tweek from there? This way the blast charge with the armor penetration advantage still is > for ST. I mean even before blast charge buff what made Shrapnel > for ST was not the initial boom but the DoT after. Or just make shrapnel and spike charge DoT NOT stack. So you have the old shrapnel charge BUT you still don't want to use it ST because no DoT due to spike charge.
    Last edited by Galibier; 01-02-2012 at 08:24 AM.
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    High Explosives ruined saboteur. Until it is removed and other aspects buffed saboteur will continue to suck. HE means extremely bad scaling with AP. It increases only single target dps which means saboteur AE will be bad because it can't get buffed without its single target going too high because of HE.

    Good start to fixing sab would be to change charge booster to +10% AP contribution to all charges plus 5% per point in sab soul after 21. Change residual shrapnel back to 50%. Make splinter charge and embers charge AOE. Change saboteur synergy crystal to be more useful. Then when the base for scaling is there it's time to tweak the damage of the actual charges or modifiers of some of the abilities to put the dps where it's supposed to be. Maybe even make bombs useful.

    Saboteur should be an aoe soul a bit like cabalist is for clerics. That would give it a purpose and explosions being aoe would make sense. High Explosives is keeping saboteur as a single target build with extremely poor scaling and relatively bad aoe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    High Explosives ruined saboteur. Until it is removed and other aspects buffed saboteur will continue to suck. HE means extremely bad scaling with AP. It increases only single target dps which means saboteur AE will be bad because it can't get buffed without its single target going too high because of HE.

    Good start to fixing sab would be to change charge booster to +10% AP contribution to all charges plus 5% per point in sab soul after 21. Change residual shrapnel back to 50%. Make splinter charge and embers charge AOE. Change saboteur synergy crystal to be more useful. Then when the base for scaling is there it's time to tweak the damage of the actual charges or modifiers of some of the abilities to put the dps where it's supposed to be. Maybe even make bombs useful.

    Saboteur should be an aoe soul a bit like cabalist is for clerics. That would give it a purpose and explosions being aoe would make sense. High Explosives is keeping saboteur as a single target build with extremely poor scaling and relatively bad aoe.
    I miss old charge booster

    What do you think about traps/bombs gery?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    I miss old charge booster

    What do you think about traps/bombs gery?
    Traps are pointless currently and I don't even know where to start to fix them, they would have to be completely redesigned.

    Bombs were buffed but not enough to make them worth using in normal dps rotation unless target is about to die or during the +50% synergy crystal damage boost. If fragmentation bomb didn't have a cooldown it could be used as a spammable aoe like fan out which wouldn't be the highest dps but it wouldn't have a setup time and it wouldn't be a dot. That would be a good role for it in my opinion.

    Other way to make bombs useful would be to add modifiers or effects to them so an optimal rotation with charges would also include bombs. That would make the soul more interesting to play since the rotation wouldn't be so static.

  8. #8
    Plane Walker Enaki's Avatar
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    I think you just flat out remove traps and the related talents. Don't try to fix them, just say they did not play out as expected and move on. Then you could put in talents that would provide synergy with other souls or make Sab less dependent on other specific souls. For example put in something in the 6th branch that boosts crit damage, but don't let it stack with the Assassin ability. Then you wouldn't be tied hand and foot to Assassin if you wanted to maximize damage. As for the root abilities you could make them Bombs instead, but I'd prefer to see some kind of 2 charge/cp item to speed up the rotation a bit.

    As for Embers and Splinter I honestly don't think that making them affect all targets will get them used. Others can provide equal debuff amounts with smaller build up times. The fact that you have to put a full 5 charges over 5 seconds and use a finisher to apply them means they won't get used unless they have a significantly higher debuff amount. They really need to be instant cast bombs to be useful and AoE to be great, though you might have to move Splinter Charge further up in level if you did this. Either way that would be consistent with the 1.5 goals of making Rogue utility easier to use.

    That's the problem with Sab though, it needs a lot of work to make it feel cohesive with itself, much less other souls. You can address damage numbers and scaling but there are a lot of abilities/ideas that just are not playing out well in practical terms. And there are things in it that currently work at current level but would be overpowered if you do X (like the fact that detonate can't miss so sab damage is practically if not totally guaranteed). I think that's why you see such a variation of suggestions. Some people assume trying to tweak vs overhaul and others say just flat out overhaul.

    There seems to be a few things we all agree on though:
    • It needs to be an AoE soul and it's not living up to that yet. Most agree that AoE needs to be upped in a way to not make it the best ST Soul.
    • ST does need improvement though, mostly due to scaling issues.
    • Bombs have come a long way, but aren't there yet. They need some kind of interaction with charges (like reapplying the Spike Charge DoT) or need to be some kind of filler (for example if you shortened the charge/cp build up time/rotation)
    • Traps feel pointless. They may have niche uses, but when pressed people have trouble coming up with practical uses.
    • Synergy with Sab is horrid. Want a melee build? You have to use a gimicky BD trick and assassin. Want a ranged build, drop BD, but you're still going with Sin. And who uses Sab as a secondary soul unless it's a 0 point investment for Adhesive in PvP?
    Here's to hoping the dev's have the desire to help this unique feeling soul find it's balanced legs, and the time to do it well.
    Last edited by Enaki; 01-02-2012 at 12:10 PM.
    Telarans on class balance: Rock is overpowered. Paper is fine. - Scissors

  9. #9
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    Sab just has so many issues.

    I'd say take bombs off GCD, have them add 2 cp and add 2 charges of the last used charge.

    Would allow for faster dets, but energy starvation would stop it from being too powerful.

    Second thought this wouldn't work due to dots and clipping. Yup HE needs to be straight up damage and not a dot I guess.
    Last edited by DTM300; 01-03-2012 at 02:33 PM.

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