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Thread: Giving Saboteur a chance....in PvP

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default Giving Saboteur a chance....in PvP

    I went ahead and tried out 44 sab/22 sin. DPS was decent, lack of healing debuff was not good, and heavy armor wasn't fun either. I will admit I'm not used to sab style of play, I run 51 sin/15 inf almost exclusively for pvp nowadays. I was hoping burst would be better, even if survivability went down.

    Anyway! After my experiences last night, I have been at work this morning trying to think of the best burst build I could come up with for saboteurs. I read a bunch of builds, I haven't seen this one, although I am sure someone has tried it once before.

    Sadly Zam doesn't work for me so I'm going to type the skills I think might work.

    The build I want to try tonight is: 26 Sab/18 NB/22 Sin

    Sab skills:
    5 Nimble Fingers
    5 Long Range Bombing
    5 Increased Explosive Power
    1 Time Bomb
    4 Improved Detonate
    4 Bomb Specialist
    1 Annihilation Bomb
    1 Carpet Bombing

    NB skills:
    5 Blazing Fury
    5 Coup De Grace
    3 Unstable State
    2 Melted Skin
    3 Fire and Death Attunement

    Sin skills:
    5 Ruthlessness
    1 Puncture
    3 Serrated Blades
    1 Cloak and Dagger
    5 Cruel Vengeance
    2 Magnify Pain
    2 Silent Footsteps
    1 Blinding Powder
    1 Improved Stealth
    1 Foul Play

    OK, this is all theorycraft, since I am at work so any input is appreciated!!!

    The concept is for fastest burst possible, using non physical damage mostly, kill, and restealth or probably die, mainly one on one or one on two fights. Just like a high sin build.

    The skill explanation:
    Nightblade I think is extremely important in this build. You increase your combo point damage and finisher damage. You increase your non physical damage(think bombs and ember/caltrop charges), increase all damage with melted skin and F&D attunement. All in all, a lot of increased damage.

    You also get hellfire blades to increase damage, fell blades for healing debuff, and a defensive c/d which may or may not save you. Open would be dark malady most likely.

    Assassin is for the typical reasons, increased crit, crit damage, unlimited stealth, a few stuns, etc. I took puncture as a 2 CP move that ignores armor, eventhough its physical damage as well as serrated bladed for a bleed. 1 point in cloak and dagger is for when I open with paralyzing/assassinate for extra damage.

    You get baneful touch as a buff, expose weakness, and a break free in cut and run. No slip away will be tough to swallow, but oh well.

    Saboteur skills: (focused on bombs and increasing damage)
    Dex increase, increased bomb range and lower c/d, increased damage for charges and detonate, increased bomb damage, 2 bombs that do earth damage, carpet bombing for no c/d burst.
    I'm thinking about squeezing charge booster in and dropping a point somewhere else, but not sure what the dps difference is.

    Well, that's all the skills. I am sure there are better builds that use something besides sab, but like I said in the title, giving saboteur a chance...

    One last thing, the rotation. Was thinking something like: Expose weakness, Dark Malady, Puncture(prob best time due to being in melee range), Annihilation Bomb, Ember or Caltrop Charge, Detonate, Time Bomb, Foul Play (if melee range), Ember or Caltrop Charges, Carpet Bombing, Annih Bomb a few times, Detonate

    Maybe could cast carpet bombing earlier and save detonate as killing blow, but I don't think that would be enough damage.

    After that, might be time to assess your options!!!

    Appreciate any comments/improvements,
    Malar
    Shortround the Vanquisher: member of Havoc on Keenblade
    Malar the Retired!!

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    If you're going to use Time Bombs, be as well to lob one in right off after stealth is down, or as soon as in range if you aren't able to make a sneak attack. Throw a fresh one each time the last one goes off, too. If you don't hesitate, a Time Bomb->5xCharges->Expose Weakness->Detonate would give you the bomb going off damn near on top of the Det, give or take half a second.

    Remember that Carpet Bombing resets cooldown on ALL your bombs when it is hit, so you can let all your bombs fly first, including Chem & Snare, then hit CB and spam Anni or Frag bomb, and then repeat the other bombs when you use up your no-cd shots. Still, it's not going to be a lot of DPS even as a burst, as the damaging bombs are designed more for AE use than single-target.

    I haven't tried Incapacitate/Lost Hope in PvP, but if they work on players that gives you two knockouts from Stealth, so you can LH them at a safe distance to see if they blow a Break Free or other anti-control CD, then Incapacitate. Set up a stack of 5 charges while they're down, re-stealth, and then hit 'em with a Dark Malady->Detonate combo. If it's possible to follow that with Foul Play and/or Blinding Powder (remember to turn off autoattack), you could get in the Time Bomb & a second round of 5xCharge->Detonate without them getting a chance to heal.

    Caltrop and Ember charges do similar damage, so if you're planning any kite-style maneuvers, you'll probably get better effect with just Ember for damage and using Adhesive bombs (and Carpet bombing if needed) for the Snare.

    I'm not sure if focusing on the non-physical damage will pan out, but the novelty change in tactics might throw off some of the less-seasoned opposition at least.

  3. #3
    Telaran
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    Thanks for the response. I think I was casting carpet bombing first, good to know to cast the bombs, then carpet bomb, then more bombs. Casting time bomb is a good idea if not in stealth for sure. Putting it in rotation earlier I will try as well.

    I do know you can use both incapacitates. I used to use one for one player, then another on another player, while trying to kill a 3rd. I don't know if I use both, assuming they break free one, if they will be immune to foul play/blinding powder. I think they are on different timers, but I'm not positive.

    One concern I have with blinding powder is the fact I use serrated blades and puncture, which would break the disorient. I will have to figure out if that becomes an issue or not.

    I can say from testing last night with a 44/22 build, starting off with paralyzing strike or assassinate, a bunch of bombs, a few combo points, and a detonate does hit pretty hard. I really believe the bombs are a big part of the burst, even if they are designed for aoe. I am hoping this version will up the initial burst more.

    I think using the elemental damage has potential, everyone has been focusing on the physical damage of saboteur. ** Crosses fingers. **
    Shortround the Vanquisher: member of Havoc on Keenblade
    Malar the Retired!!

  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    If you hold off on melee attacks until after the post-Blinding Powder detonation, then damage breaking wouldn't come into play- Serrated Blades only procs off melee attacks. It was intended as an opening sequence for 1v1 world PvP. Ideal process would be starting while Stealthed:

    Lost Hope or Incapacitate->Reapply LH/Incap *IF* they use a Break Free->Time Bomb->5xCharges->Expose Weakness->Detonate->Blinding Powder (switch off Autoattack)->Time Bomb->5xCharges->Expose Weakness->Detonate

    I had forgotten about the Serrated Blades proc when I originally suggested restealthing and opening with Dark Malady after preloading the first charges. If you try using it, then you can sub Foul Play for Blinding Powder when Blades procs, but they'll get time to react between FP wearing off and your second Detonate.

    In whichever case, if they don't drop dead on the second Detonate+exploding Time Bomb combo, hit 'em fast & hard with what you can. If it's a caster opponent, you could try dumping an Adhesive bomb before Blinding Powder breaks, and a Choking Gas right after Detonate- they'll have to creep out of the field to cast, which might buy enough time to finish them off.

  5. #5
    Telaran
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    DHZ1, Due to diminishing returns, there isn't that much time while the enemy can't do anything.

    Well, I compared a few spec last night at the dummy, in embers isle, and 40/26 in a few WFs.

    44 sab/22sin; 26 sab/18 nb/22 sin; and 40 sin/26 sab. I'm going to test more tonight.

    I only tested time bomb, annihilation bomb, 5 BC/Detonate, and 5 EC/Detonate.
    44/22 did a ton of damage to the dummy with high explosives and extra damage dot from blast charges and bombs hit hard too. 26/18/22 did good elemental damage, highest bomb damage, but on dummy the overall damage was lower. 40/26 I tested briefly on dummy, mainly comparing FB to Detonate.

    Ember isle is where I go to see how fast I can kill a decently high health mob. I used my 51 sin/15 inf as my comparison. It appears the kill speed went 40/26, 51/15 = 44/22, 26/18/22 which surprised me a bit.

    40/26 is played pretty much identically to 51/15. I open with jagged, puncture, impale. The difference is bombs seem to add more dps then serpent strike in the short term, especially if carpet bombing is up. The range of bombs is nice too. Honestly I don't seem to be using charges much with this build, so it's really only the bombs that are adding dps so I am going to have to see how to change that.

    Well 40/26 tried out in Codex. I literally destroyed 6k or lower health targets in short order. (I'm rk 5) I dunno if it's the sound of the bombs that make them run or the stealth opener, but more players ran from me last night then I'm used to, could of just been bad players.

    I basically opened with jagged, puncture, impale(detonate if out of range), ann bomb, frag bomb, carpet bombing, 4 more annih bombs, frag bomb. That killed a lot of peeps. I popped time bomb on a few, but I'm slacking on using that bomb atm.
    On ones that ran, I used ember charges and detonate after bombs were on c/d. In melee range, with impale, final blow does a lot more damage over detonate. I honestly didn't used slip away as an offensive move, but the option is there.

    All in all, I was pretty pleased, but its still a gank spec like 51 sin, you need to pick targets carefully as you are very squishy, no healing debuff or cleanse, and my rotation needs to be tweaked.

    I'm going to try some more testing this weekend and will see what I come up with.

    Malar
    Shortround the Vanquisher: member of Havoc on Keenblade
    Malar the Retired!!

  6. #6
    Telaran
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    So how did it work out for you? I was thinking of doing a 40 or 44 ranger and the rest in sab as an experiment mostly for the bombs not charges.. think it could work?
    Quote Originally Posted by Malar View Post
    DHZ1, Due to diminishing returns, there isn't that much time while the enemy can't do anything.

    Well, I compared a few spec last night at the dummy, in embers isle, and 40/26 in a few WFs.

    44 sab/22sin; 26 sab/18 nb/22 sin; and 40 sin/26 sab. I'm going to test more tonight.

    I only tested time bomb, annihilation bomb, 5 BC/Detonate, and 5 EC/Detonate.
    44/22 did a ton of damage to the dummy with high explosives and extra damage dot from blast charges and bombs hit hard too. 26/18/22 did good elemental damage, highest bomb damage, but on dummy the overall damage was lower. 40/26 I tested briefly on dummy, mainly comparing FB to Detonate.

    Ember isle is where I go to see how fast I can kill a decently high health mob. I used my 51 sin/15 inf as my comparison. It appears the kill speed went 40/26, 51/15 = 44/22, 26/18/22 which surprised me a bit.

    40/26 is played pretty much identically to 51/15. I open with jagged, puncture, impale. The difference is bombs seem to add more dps then serpent strike in the short term, especially if carpet bombing is up. The range of bombs is nice too. Honestly I don't seem to be using charges much with this build, so it's really only the bombs that are adding dps so I am going to have to see how to change that.

    Well 40/26 tried out in Codex. I literally destroyed 6k or lower health targets in short order. (I'm rk 5) I dunno if it's the sound of the bombs that make them run or the stealth opener, but more players ran from me last night then I'm used to, could of just been bad players.

    I basically opened with jagged, puncture, impale(detonate if out of range), ann bomb, frag bomb, carpet bombing, 4 more annih bombs, frag bomb. That killed a lot of peeps. I popped time bomb on a few, but I'm slacking on using that bomb atm.
    On ones that ran, I used ember charges and detonate after bombs were on c/d. In melee range, with impale, final blow does a lot more damage over detonate. I honestly didn't used slip away as an offensive move, but the option is there.

    All in all, I was pretty pleased, but its still a gank spec like 51 sin, you need to pick targets carefully as you are very squishy, no healing debuff or cleanse, and my rotation needs to be tweaked.

    I'm going to try some more testing this weekend and will see what I come up with.

    Malar
    The truth is something people say they want to hear, but truly do not want to hear it.

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    I think bombs are very useful. Not sure about having to use 26 points in the tree though.

    I do like sin/sab though.
    Last edited by Malar; 12-15-2011 at 05:04 PM.
    Shortround the Vanquisher: member of Havoc on Keenblade
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  8. #8
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    I played sab in pvp a lot - though it sounds like my style is different then yours. I play it purely as a ranged build and go 0 point MM as the third soul.

    Armor penetration is terrible yea with sab, I purely go for healers.

    My typical tactic is:

    Load shrap x5 on a healer - snare bomb under them - silence bomb under them - detonate. Then stay on them. If they try to use a big heal - use anni bomb. I use shrap because healers tend to cluster for ... moral support? Not sure. The more aoe damage you do the more pressure it'll put on them.

    After a while when a healer sees the snare bomb under them they'll assume an attack is coming and start kiting. I snare bomb a lot even when I don't have anything setup so they don't plant. Most pvp healers are terrible and stop healing their team while moving. DoL spammers are easy to take out, but the pure healing sent-wardens are tougher. I just stay on them and don't let them plant so they can't use their bigger heals. I usually play a pvp healer in pvp games, so my perspective is a bit different then most. Rather then focus on PKs to judge my effectiveness, I speced more for CC and making healer's lives miserable.

    Rather then NB, thinking about it have you tried MM? Vampiric is just as high up as fell blades plus you get the speed boosts for kiting. My typical build is 44sab-22sin. The extra poison damage on poisons effects charges.
    Last edited by Mayi; 12-15-2011 at 05:19 PM.
    I rite a gooded guide for rouges.

    NB-Sin Guide - http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...-sin-spec.html

  9. #9
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Hum, you gave me an idea. I'm going to try this out:

    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...dxkoR.V0xkVz.L

    Might be crap... I donno. However, I wouldn't use a sab build without choking gas bomb.

    I've never mixed keen eye (extra range with MM) with sab before, does it increase the range? If so, 35m sab attacks would be pretty nice.
    Last edited by Mayi; 12-15-2011 at 05:34 PM.
    I rite a gooded guide for rouges.

    NB-Sin Guide - http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...-sin-spec.html

  10. #10
    Telaran
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    My biggest problem is all my builds have assassin. I love sin! I'm going to try something different tonight when I get home. I'm bowling atm!

    Ranger idea made me think of something.
    Shortround the Vanquisher: member of Havoc on Keenblade
    Malar the Retired!!

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple
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    Very interesting spec. I like the first one and the concept of it. I am going to try it out and see if I like it. Also i am a FS fan so i might try to incorporate that in somewhere for fun. Keep us informed on your progress. I am curious to read your perspective on the different specs.

  12. #12
    Plane Touched bleachx's Avatar
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    Bladeteur!
    Something I used for funzies back when sabdancer was the pve spec was drop the sin and put in inf and used flash of stee insted of puncture for your 2 combo point builder is was something like this

    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1M...VMbEd0koo.xx0M
    In case you weren't around it was something like 3 charges > flash > deadly strike > 2 charges > deto > 5 charges > deto.. it was dumb but was a lot of fun and had cleanse soul! lol It actually had decent aoe.

    Another way you could have fun with the sab - deadly dance thing is go 51sabo/15bd you could still do that same rotation if u want and still have full sabo goodies. Hell you could pop rapid setup to get your second stack in one global. That actually might kill someone No matter how much sab might suck in pvp you are guaranteed to have fun imo.

    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1M...uz.EqRfEdtkkRz

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    As someone playing assassin I think a good saboteur gives me plenty headache in a warfront.

    The ranged support they give can really ruin my day when running on treacle.

    I'm gonna try saboteur myself. MUAHAHAHAHAHA...

  14. #14
    Telaran
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    Well my final thoughts on sab from the last few days. Ran 44 Sab/22 Sin, 34 Sab/32 Sin, 44 Sab/22 RS, 40 Sin/26 Sab, 26 Sab/22 Sin/18 NB. I couldn't find any marks/ranger specs to tie in with sab atm.

    My opinion is charges/detonate is just a mechanic that is tough to use in PvP due to time to build charges takes too long with no damage while building them. I did find that you could use guardian phase to build charges, swap to stalker phase to detonate and get no dps loss from charges if you use riftstalker. Sucks there is a c/d between phase swaps. Maybe 40 RS/26 Sab could work due to increased survival, but I suspect dps would be pretty low.

    Bombs are very useful however. The downfall though is to get the good bombs and higher dps from them you need to spec around 25+ in sab tree. 40 Sin/26 Sab I found worked very well, a lot of burst, especially with carpet bombing. Seeing annihilation bomb crit 2-3 times in a row is awesome. The bombs added some nice dps for 1 on 1 battles, but was pretty bad in group play in my opinion.

    Sab is a fun tree, but if bombs gave combo points, that would be a huge boost in my opinion.

    As for my initial spec 26/18/22, this spec is fun, but the dps isn't really there like I hoped. If anyone has any luck or ideas, let me know.

    Malar
    Shortround the Vanquisher: member of Havoc on Keenblade
    Malar the Retired!!

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    I'm going to try playing around with a Sab after I level up a rogue this weekend. From my limited experience playing Sab in PvP, the charges worked the best against that PITA (pain in the @$$) tank or healer who keeps getting big heals after the health is low. I was using sab as more of a sniper class than anything- wait until health is low then det at the perfect time. That seemed to be the main advantage of charges/det- being able to choose exactly when the damage is dealt. Granted, it takes more patience and is a slower rogue class to play when done that way, but if you stack up your charges on one enemy then play with bombs until that player gets low (works great on fang of regulos holders) it proved to be a game-changer. As a disclaimer, that was before many patches and was lower-level PvP so there were no R8's to worry about.
    Thanks for the thread!
    -=Verchiel=-
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