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Thread: Suggestions for Improving Bladedancers

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default Suggestions for Improving Bladedancers

    Bladedancer Suggestions
    As we all know, Bladedancers are fairly far behind other specs when it comes to melee damage output and raid utility. The main goal of these suggestions is to improve upon their damage and make Bladedancers a use for groups and raids without losing the flavor of the soul, and also to give some slight improvement in a PvP environment.

    A brief of major changes:
    • All Rhythmic Actions have no cost. This affects Blade Tempo, Double Coup, Dualism, and Blade and Soul Parity.
    • All Rhythmic Actions are off the global cooldown. This affects Sprint and Side Steps.
    • Deadly Dance works with all Bladedancer finishers, not just Deadly Strike.
    • False Blade, when specced, will affect the entire raid/party like Dauntless Strike.
    • A new ability called "Shared Rhythm" will allow for Dodge/Parry based procs to be useful in raids/parties, without changing the Dodge/Parry based abilities themselves.
    • When specced, duration of False Blade and Dauntless Strike buffs are doubled; combined with the aforementioned change to Deadly Dance will help reduce upkeep of combat buffs significantly and increase the use of stronger finishers like Deadly Strike.
    • Overall damage increased by about 15% to bring more in-line with other Rogue specs.

    Perks
    Tier 1
    Quick Reflexes (5/5)- Unchanged
    Blade Finesse (5/5)- Increases the Attack Power bonus of your Bladedancer Finishers by 5% per rank (max 25%).

    Tier 2
    Strike Back (2/2)- Unchanged
    Reprisal (1/1)- Now awards 2 Combo Points.
    Blade and Fury (2/2)- Increased amount to 10% per rank.
    Combat Expertise (5/5)- Unchanged

    Tier 3
    Sprint (1/1)- No longer triggers a global cooldown.
    Deadly Dance (3/3)- All Bladedancer finishers increase the damage of your next 3 combo point generating abilities by 21% per Combo Point.
    Ambidextrous (5/5)- Unchanged

    Tier 4
    Turn the Tide (2/2)- Duration increased to 15 seconds.
    Blade Tempo (1/1)- Cost reduced to 0.
    Combat Efficiency (3/3)- Unchanged
    NEW Chaotic Dance (2/2)- Increases the duration of False Blade and Dauntless Strike by 50/100%.
    Combat Culmination (3/3) - Removed

    Tier 5
    Improved False Blade (2/2)- Removed and combined into default False Blade
    Unabating Steel (1/1)- Also affects Sprint
    Contra Tempo (2/2)- Unchanged
    Counterbalance (2/2)- Decreases cooldown on your Rhythmic Actions by 10/20 seconds.
    NEW Group Rhythm (1/1)- Your False Blade and Dauntless Strike now affect all party and raid members. Party and Raid members cannot be affected by more than one False Blade or Dauntless Strike. (Requires Chaotic Dance 2/2)

    Tier 6
    Vivacity (2/2)- Damage bonus increased to 7.5% per rank (15% total)
    Disengage (1/1)- Unchanged
    Counterbalance (3/3)- Unchanged
    NEW Shared Rhythm (1/1)- No Cost, Instant: The Bladedancer shares his Rhythm with another, increasing one ally's Dodge and Parry chance by 2%. Dodges and Parries performed by that ally will trigger your Reprisal, Disengage, and Turn the Tide abilities. Cannot target the Rogue. Can only affect 1 ally at a time. Lasts 1 hour.

    Tier 7
    Dancing Steel (1/1)- Movement speed is increased by 20% for the duration. Does not stack with the bonus from Sprint. Also, on a cosmetic note, the animation should be changed to be an actual "whirlwind maneuver", like this.



    Root Abilities
    Here, I'm only going to mention abilities that have changes, rather than every ability:

    Side Steps - No longer affected by the global cooldown.

    False Blade- Now increases Dodge and Parry by 5% (combined Improved False blade into base ability)

    Dauntless Strike- Now only affects the Bladedancer.

    NEW Perfect Reflex (16 pt)- 30 Energy/Instant/45 second cooldown The Bladedancer predicts the opponent's next move perfectly, causing the next attack to be Dodged by the Bladedancer. Lasts 6 seconds. Does not trigger a global cooldown.

    Dualism- I'm not sure what to do with this. I considered combining it into Double Coup, but that would be far too strong. It's not exactly a useless ability, but I don't really like it. Anyone have ideas?

    Double Coup, Dualism, and Blade and Soul Parity- cost reduced to 0.


    That's all. I'm not the most knowledgeable person on end-game Rogues, as I do not currently have one (I'm working on it, though), but from my experience with Bladedancers I think these changes are warranted. I'm always open to ideas and criticisms to improve my suggestions. Thoughts?
    Last edited by Seginus; 12-13-2011 at 07:28 PM.

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    Default Dancing Steel Animation Link

    Forgot to add the link, when talking about how Dancing Steel should look, I meant to link to this.
    Last edited by Seginus; 12-13-2011 at 07:37 PM.

  3. #3
    Ascendant Am0n's Avatar
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    For PvE it sounds nice.

    PvP idk, I think some of that would make BD a bit OP as a side tree.
    "You lost me at Balance"

  4. #4
    Plane Touched
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    Pretty much to make BD viable end-game, all they have to do is make Turn the Tide and Reprisal proc off of crits. BD is already a really cool tree IMO, I'd love to be able to make use of it on a raid and not be gimping my guild by playing a fun build.

    If Combat Culmination was left as-is and triggered from BD finishers, that'd be cool and would make it actually useful in terms of the energy savings that BD is supposed to represent.

  5. #5
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Am0n View Post
    For PvE it sounds nice.

    PvP idk, I think some of that would make BD a bit OP as a side tree.
    Yeah, I'm not sure about how a lot of this would influence the PvP side of things. I'm sure there could be adjustments for when in a PvP environment if things are too strong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruination View Post
    Pretty much to make BD viable end-game, all they have to do is make Turn the Tide and Reprisal proc off of crits. BD is already a really cool tree IMO, I'd love to be able to make use of it on a raid and not be gimping my guild by playing a fun build.

    If Combat Culmination was left as-is and triggered from BD finishers, that'd be cool and would make it actually useful in terms of the energy savings that BD is supposed to represent.
    Having those abilities proc off of crits was mentioned in the other Suggestion thread, and I'm personally against it. Part of the unique style of Bladedancer is being focused around Dodge/Parry; once you make these proc off crits, too, it loses that uniqueness. That's why I added in Shared Rhythm; that, along with False Blade, can buff the tank's Dodge/Parry by 7% each, and any time they do, it triggers your abilities. I figured this was a fair compromise; it allows the abilities to be used in raids, adds a buff to the tank, and doesn't change the style of the soul at all.

    Combat Culmination... while I don't personally like it, I can see why others would. But making it trigger from every Finisher? That would be ridiculous, your finishers would be a net gain of Energy.

  6. #6
    Sword of Telara
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    Contra Tempo needs to apply to all Bladedancer combo point builders. Contra Tempo is key to the scaling of the entire soul.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple
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    Even with your changes , BD will not be viable in PVEHL settings.
    it's simple. Our 4 piece HK crystal is link to 2 abilities : BSP and Dualism. But to have at least 50% of the crystal effect you need to put 40 point in BD and since the best up in term of dps is BSP you are forced to put 51 point.
    And 51 point spec means : No Magnify Pain.

    If you prefer , your change add some little utility (2% more for dodge and parry for the tank) but in terms of dps output , this is not enough to be competitive with Bloodstalker , Nb or MM.
    And with you shared abilities , your dps is very dependant of your tank. I don't think there is an other soul with a dps dependant of the tank.
    So your changes are not what BD need.
    Just throw out your "Flavour" idea of the soul. This soul is a DPS one , not a solo one (we are in an MMORPG and you talk about solo......) What this soul need is DPS. Not flavour.
    Last edited by Atheres; 12-14-2011 at 02:13 AM.

  8. #8
    Ascendant
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    Those are some pretty nice ideas. Very well thought through.

    Definitely agree with getting rid of Combat Culmination. It has to be a runner for the most impractical Energy management tool in the game. I would fold the parry/dodge/crit buff from that into Dauntless Strike and False Blade.

    Deadly Dance change - Absolutely. This makes sense for a whole sack of reasons.

    Vivacity + Blade and Fury - Would be a nice way to give a subtle overall damage boost without breaking anything. Keen Strike in particular has extremely low damage right now.

    Dualism - This is the strongest Rhythm in the tree by a fair ways. I like it, but the only problem with it is you kind of need to hit an extra Keen Strike when you already have 5 combo points to get the maximum benefit from it (you want to Deadly Dance two Quicks/Precisions per rotation). It's a bit awkward I think though I don't really mind.
    Last edited by Kedon; 12-14-2011 at 02:40 AM.

  9. #9
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pink Freud View Post
    Contra Tempo needs to apply to all Bladedancer combo point builders. Contra Tempo is key to the scaling of the entire soul.
    I see your point and agree as far as normal builders go, not sure about Reprisal, though. But now that you mention it, I believe that Keen Strike and Twin Strike need the scaling, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atheres View Post
    Even with your changes , BD will not be viable in PVEHL settings.
    it's simple. Our 4 piece HK crystal is link to 2 abilities : BSP and Dualism. But to have at least 50% of the crystal effect you need to put 40 point in BD and since the best up in term of dps is BSP you are forced to put 51 point.
    And 51 point spec means : No Magnify Pain.
    Okay, you make a point about the crystal. But that problem lies more with the crystal, and less with my suggestions. Combine the suggestions I offered with a crystal that is useful for sub-51-point builds and it would be fine. I'm not entirely sure what would be the best options for it, though, perhaps replacing the 4-piece perk with something like a 20% damage bonus to Bladedancer finishers so as to not force a 51-point spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atheres View Post
    If you prefer , your change add some little utility (2% more for dodge and parry for the tank) but in terms of dps output , this is not enough to be competitive with Bloodstalker , Nb or MM.
    And with you shared abilities , your dps is very dependant of your tank. I don't think there is an other soul with a dps dependant of the tank.
    Actually, with the suggestions I made, it's a total of 7% Dodge/Parry for the tank, and 5% Dodge/Parry for the rest of the raid (as False Blade would work raid-wide), on top of the raid-wide 5% critical rate bonus from Dauntless Strike. I find that to be a fair bonus.

    And sure, there is no other DPS that utilizes the tank for procs, but being different is hardly an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atheres View Post
    So your changes are not what BD need.
    Just throw out your "Flavour" idea of the soul. This soul is a DPS one , not a solo one (we are in an MMORPG and you talk about solo......) What this soul need is DPS. Not flavour.
    I don't recall ever mentioning solo play anywhere in my suggestions; all of my changes are geared towards making the soul better for group play (except maybe moving Sprint/Side Steps off the GCD). And yes, the soul absolutely needs to keep its style, just like every other one does. Normalizing everything ruins the uniqueness of the souls; just look at the backlash there was over the homogenization of the Warrior tanking souls. People like diversity among their classes/souls; without it, the game becomes boring.

  10. #10
    Plane Touched SiliconShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seginus View Post
    Combat Culmination... while I don't personally like it, I can see why others would. But making it trigger from every Finisher? That would be ridiculous, your finishers would be a net gain of Energy.
    This is what the 4pc hk crystal should do.

  11. #11
    Champion
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    I quite like the propositions but :

    -Unabating Steel (1/1)- Also affects Sprint
    Do you men 15s immune to all CC? this is OP for a lower tier ability when it's about PvP...

    -NEW Perfect Reflex (16 pt)- 30 Energy/Instant/45 second cooldown The Bladedancer predicts the opponent's next move perfectly, causing the next attack to be Dodged by the Bladedancer. Lasts 6 seconds. Does not trigger a global cooldown.
    Sounds very powerfull for tanking. Is it intented?

    I quite like the changes, but I doubt it will make it viable for pve raids...

    "A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords at dawn..".

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple
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    My list of "what i need for christmas"

    - Deadly dance now affect all blade dancer finisher.
    - Contra Tempo now affect Keen strike , in addition to Quick strike and Precision strike
    - Blade and Soul parity swap with Dancing steel.
    - Combat Culmination now increase the Auto attack damage by 45% (15% per point) instead of his precedent effect.
    - Turn the tide : Now proc of crit too.
    - Reprisal : Now proc of crit too , cooldown increased to 8s.
    - Strike Back : Now proc of crit too , cannot happen more than once each 5s.
    Last edited by Atheres; 12-14-2011 at 05:41 AM.

  13. #13
    Shield of Telara Spungey's Avatar
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    IMHO, BaSP should be moved down the root to around 44 pts and then make the 51pt root to cause all bladedancer abilities to have 20% crit damage.

    That would allow for the crystal to stay the same, as well as not getting Magnify Pain with the new 51pt root.
    "TO PRO PHYS HEALS FOR JUUUU"

    (Vanilla: Spongey@Keenblade "Nexilis")
    (Nightmare Tide: Excuse@Deepwood

  14. #14
    Shield of Telara Spungey's Avatar
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    Regardless, something has to be done for rogues come 1.7. I'm not waiting around much longer for Rogues to be given there Flavor back. Most people who rolled Rogue from day 1 did it for DPS with a little bit of tanking and barding on the side. It's pathetic thinking Trion didn't intend on Rogues being a DPS master.
    "TO PRO PHYS HEALS FOR JUUUU"

    (Vanilla: Spongey@Keenblade "Nexilis")
    (Nightmare Tide: Excuse@Deepwood

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaaz View Post
    I quite like the propositions but :

    -Unabating Steel (1/1)- Also affects Sprint
    Do you men 15s immune to all CC? this is OP for a lower tier ability when it's about PvP...
    Unabating Steel lasts for 4 seconds after the ability is used, not 15.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaaz View Post
    -NEW Perfect Reflex (16 pt)- 30 Energy/Instant/45 second cooldown The Bladedancer predicts the opponent's next move perfectly, causing the next attack to be Dodged by the Bladedancer. Lasts 6 seconds. Does not trigger a global cooldown.
    Sounds very powerfull for tanking. Is it intented?
    It is meant as an ability to quickly trigger the multiple Dodge procs available to Bladedancers. I basically made it like the Riftblade's Stoneshield, but specifically causes a Dodge rather than a Miss. I suppose you are right in that it could be very powerful for raid tanking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaaz View Post
    I quite like the changes, but I doubt it will make it viable for pve raids...
    Total bonuses during a raid setting would include:
    • 10% increase to Keen Strike from Blade and Fury
    • 25% increase to False Blade, Dauntless Strike, and Compound Attack from Blade Finesse
    • 5% increase to all ability damage from Vivacity
    • 10% increase to all ability damage while Turn the Tide is active (since, with Shared Rhythm, you can proc off the Tank's Dodge/Parry)
    • 7% increase to Tank's Dodge/Parry
    • 5% increase to Raid Dodge/Parry
    • 5% increase to Raid Critical Rate



    Quote Originally Posted by Atheres View Post
    My list of "what i need for christmas"

    - Deadly dance now affect all blade dancer finisher.
    - Contra Tempo now affect Keen strike , in addition to Quick strike and Precision strike
    - Blade and Soul parity swap with Dancing steel.
    - Combat Culmination now increase the Auto attack damage by 45% (15% per point) instead of his precedent effect.
    Agreed on the first two. For BaSP being swapped with Dancing Steel, it sounds pretty reasonable, though Dancing Steel would need a big buff for being moved to a 51-pt ability.

    The Combat Culmination ability doesn't sound all that useful.

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