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Thread: Saboteur – An Overview of my Opinions

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    Rift Disciple sirdanile's Avatar
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    Default Saboteur – An Overview of my Opinions

    First off Let me say this: In my opinion charges should take 2 to 3 rotations to kill someone in pvp (Think stormcaller), bombs should deal enough damage or have enough utility to make people want to use them INSTEAD of building a rotation of charges, the main bomb benefits should be fairly low level as to allow saboteur soul synergy. Traps are defensive in nature and should be used to hold off objectives or defend your personal area while you’re laying down explosives, traps should be SEVERELY detrimental if you run into them.

    Bombs: Overall Bombs do fairly useful damage, however there are not enough of them and they have the major drawback of not granting combo points on your main target. Sadly you have to spec fairly high in the sab tree for bombs to become even remotely worthy of looking at.

    Fragmentation Bomb: This damage in Pve is really good, can crit for me to about 1k, which is nice for the cooldown it’s on. However in Pvp it’s major drawback is that it deals physical damage, getting double boned by armor and valor reducing this bomb’s damage to crap. The main intention of the frag bomb is to finish off a low hp target who survives a full charge detonate, however 200 extra damage does not cover this by any means.

    Adhesive Bomb: Defensive utility bomb, coats an area that reduces movement speed inside it by 70%. This ability is brilliant and should stay as is.

    Annihilation Bomb: The damage, being earth based is really good in Pve and PvP, the effect is a 1 second stun. With the damage being fine due to it’s elemental nature the only problem I see is that the stun is too short and often helps inflict aoe diminishing returns, however properly placed this bomb alone can allow your team to wipe groups of enemies. I personally believe that the bomb should stun for 2 seconds considering it’s cooldown is fairly close to that of foul play and other nastier stuns.

    Chemical Bomb: This bomb puts down a static aoe dot which hits extremely fast. This ability is mostly Pve Focused as it doesn’t deal any substantial damage in pvp, however I can see this boosting dps as it is passive for a long time after you cast it. I would personally boost the damage by a little and have vengeance specifically boost the damage more than normal.

    Choking Gas Bomb: at 38 points into the tree this should be the “Bomb Capstone”: It’s a persistant aoe 8 second silence, beautiful. The main problem here is that diminishing returns don’t play nice with this kind of bomb and an enemy caster can skirt the outside edge of the bomb twice to get immunity to all CC of similar types, in my opinion this bomb should not trigger dr, however the cooldown being only 30 seconds is a bit small for the powerful effect this bomb has, should be closer to a full minute cooldown.

    Time Bomb: This should be like a pyro mage’s countdown, however it’s more like half of one. In pve it’s fairly good as is, for pvp our main rotation takes 6 seconds to fire while this takes 8 seconds to detonate making it seem a bit “off” when used to aid spike damage.


    Traps: Traps are the black sheep of the sab family, they are generally weak and surprisingly limited in use. You can’t set traps from stealth and the few talents they get merely gets you different traps of equal crappy value. All traps suffer from a detrimental shared cooldown, small effective trigger radius, minute duration on the field, and only allow you to have 1 up at a time (2 if you count landmines).

    Debilitating Trap: When this trap is triggered it reduces attack and spell power by 50 for 15 seconds – Meh, doubly hit’s melee clerics I guess but otherwise it doesn’t do much, this should either severely impact the enemies offensive capabilities, such as by reducing crit chance AND power, or drain mana or energy over time or not allow it to regenerate, until the enemy dies or is cleansed.

    Booby Trap: Deals mediocre physical damage to 10 enemies within 7 meters upon triggering. ICK Increase the damage and add a secondary detrimental effect such as armor debuffs.

    Barbed Trap: Bleed for bad physical damage over 10 seconds, needs to up the damage and perhaps reduce movement speed: Until death or cleanse.

    Entangling Trap: Roots enemies within 3 meters for 8 seconds. This one is Decent I guess, slows them down a lot, can be talented to 7 meters.

    Landmines: Drops 4 landmines around you that deal decent earth damage and knock enemies back: This is the single best placeable trap sabs have going for them, doesn’t share the “Trap” identity so you can drop landmines and a trap, has a quick placement time so it can be used reactively, and it is fairly defensive by nature. Could have it’s damage increased a little but otherwise an amazing ability.

    MISC: Some of the Utility charges could EASILY be turned into bombs or traps instead of charges and they would actually get used, Stun, Armor reduction, and nonphysical damage increasing charges specifically. Another useful trap idea is to make the area of effect similar to a bomb but have it trigger a weaker group oriented effect – For example a trap that goes off and reveals stealthed characters and prevents stealth inside the trap – Could also be a bomb.


    With that said, what are your thoughts rogue community?
    I place a black candle on your chest,
    the path of night is manifest.

    Sempresno Level 50 P6 Rogue/Marcosias Level 45 Warrior/Diclonius Level 26 Mage/Sumona Level 23 Cleric - Banished - Dayblind

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    make the synergy crystal not suck

    that would be a big step in the right direction

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

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    Ascendant charliekelly's Avatar
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    maybe the crystal should be changed to increase the damage of caltrop charges by 10%!

    no but seriously the crystal plus the sab greater essence should always be used to maximize the damage of fragmentation bomb. it is necessary.
    Last edited by charliekelly; 12-09-2011 at 10:19 PM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliekelly View Post
    maybe the crystal should be changed to increase the damage of caltrop charges by 10%!

    no but seriously the crystal plus the sab greater essence should always be used to maximize the damage of fragmentation bomb. it is necessary.
    Whomever designed those two items should be forced to play rogue/sab before they make items for the calling/soul.
    Last edited by Zyzyx; 12-09-2011 at 10:48 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

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    Banned Shadowprison's Avatar
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    I'd say lower the charges needed for max effectiveness to 3, and allowing stacking up to 6.

    Also, make them uncleansable but only last for 20 seconds.

  6. #6
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowprison View Post
    Also, make them uncleansable but only last for 20 seconds.
    Ya cuz having a cleric/mage/warrior/rogue(2 min cooldown lol) use 1 gcd to completely negate 6 of the rogue's isn't fair/balanced.
    Last edited by Zyzyx; 12-09-2011 at 11:05 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

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    Shadowlander
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    If you are going to try fixing sab traps at least start with removing the cast time. Just like that other game we all know and well, not cherish. And actually since sab is pretty much ranged (kinda the point of it) make it usable with the 1 ranged soul you revamped for synergy. Let the 25% armor pen work and let EM proc off of charges, same with poisons. If you changed that right there most likely very little would need to be changed for it to be equivalent dps of other souls.

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    Rift Disciple sirdanile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowprison View Post
    I'd say lower the charges needed for max effectiveness to 3, and allowing stacking up to 6.
    Problem with this is that rogues build combo points and are supposed to grant burst after the fifth combo point, so the number for max effective is 5.

    However I can see using 3 gcds to set off a full stack, maybe make charges have a 50% chance to attach 2 and gain 2 cp with an internal cooldown of like 3 seconds?
    I place a black candle on your chest,
    the path of night is manifest.

    Sempresno Level 50 P6 Rogue/Marcosias Level 45 Warrior/Diclonius Level 26 Mage/Sumona Level 23 Cleric - Banished - Dayblind

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    Plane Walker Pendu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    make the synergy crystal not suck

    that would be a big step in the right direction
    IMO synergy crystals should simply add something extra to a spec, instead of being a requirement of being viable or not.

    If it all just depends on having a crystal or not, we'll just be bumping into the same problems when new tiers get out. [EDIT] And it also wouldn't favor only the people that are running HK for a while, killing multiple bosses. Crystal and 4 pieces takes some time and propably the majority of the playerbase don't have acces to them.
    Last edited by Pendu; 12-11-2011 at 02:22 PM.
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    Rift Master Fudge's Avatar
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    Make it not suck for PVP!
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    Plane Walker Pendu's Avatar
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    Could just make charges do damage when attaching to increase sustained dps but leave the burst parts as they are, or slightly buffed actually.

    Then someone's (zyzyx?) idea of having some of the charges being converted to bombs (ember, concussion)

    The 51 pointer works directly against almost every charge-detonation you do, especially at 51 points. Stack 5 charges, detonate, emediately stack 5 again from Rapid Setup and Detonate again and say goodbye to your High Explosives or Residual Shrapnel dot

    The only use for that ability I see is to spread charges through Annihilation bomb and then detonate the second stack, but IMO it's a very poor ability. There's a lot of trash talents and skills in the tree, I'd love to see an overhaul of the whole soul to make it playable/enjoyable/competitive again.

    The whole idea is to sabotage the enemy team, or angry monsters in pve. Not to sabotage your own group by speccing into it :< Mines and Traps should be a lot more effective, placeable in stealth (and stealth itself when speccing sabo), ranged autoattack, charges not dispellable, etc. then put Rapid Setup lower in the tree and then add some kickass thing on 51 points, because you're sacrificing a great deal in order to get it. Maybe add a ranged attack or two, mortars, some gun/bow propelled bomb, knockback, etc.

    And ofc the massive suicide explosion attack! Or exploding upon death high in the tree for pvp, I dunno.
    Last edited by Pendu; 12-11-2011 at 02:54 PM.
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    Banned Shadowprison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirdanile View Post
    Problem with this is that rogues build combo points and are supposed to grant burst after the fifth combo point, so the number for max effective is 5.

    However I can see using 3 gcds to set off a full stack, maybe make charges have a 50% chance to attach 2 and gain 2 cp with an internal cooldown of like 3 seconds?
    Or they could add 2 combo points each...

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple sirdanile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowprison View Post
    Or they could add 2 combo points each...
    But then your burst would be lower, unless you mean increasing Charge damage quite a bit as well?


    Quote Originally Posted by Pendu View Post
    Could just make charges do damage when attaching to increase sustained dps but leave the burst parts as they are, or slightly buffed actually.

    Then someone's (zyzyx?) idea of having some of the charges being converted to bombs (ember, concussion)

    The 51 pointer works directly against almost every charge-detonation you do, especially at 51 points. Stack 5 charges, detonate, emediately stack 5 again from Rapid Setup and Detonate again and say goodbye to your High Explosives or Residual Shrapnel dot

    The only use for that ability I see is to spread charges through Annihilation bomb and then detonate the second stack, but IMO it's a very poor ability. There's a lot of trash talents and skills in the tree, I'd love to see an overhaul of the whole soul to make it playable/enjoyable/competitive again.

    The whole idea is to sabotage the enemy team, or angry monsters in pve. Not to sabotage your own group by speccing into it :< Mines and Traps should be a lot more effective, placeable in stealth (and stealth itself when speccing sabo), ranged autoattack, charges not dispellable, etc. then put Rapid Setup lower in the tree and then add some kickass thing on 51 points, because you're sacrificing a great deal in order to get it. Maybe add a ranged attack or two, mortars, some gun/bow propelled bomb, knockback, etc.

    And ofc the massive suicide explosion attack! Or exploding upon death high in the tree for pvp, I dunno.
    Ember's Charge, Splinter Charge, and Concussion Charge should be made into bombs, applying them for a debuff is generally just a waste of time for both pve and pvp.

    I think Traps should be a lot more effective and have more consequence for triggering than they currently do, charges shouldn't deal damage when they hit but they should proc poisons and munitions and benefit from more talents (Clarity on what works with what will also help, keep this in mind tooltip makers!)

    Exploding upon death in pvp would be hilarious.
    I place a black candle on your chest,
    the path of night is manifest.

    Sempresno Level 50 P6 Rogue/Marcosias Level 45 Warrior/Diclonius Level 26 Mage/Sumona Level 23 Cleric - Banished - Dayblind

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    Ascendant Gunzip's Avatar
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    Sab has very little utility in a pve environment /end thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I believe Assassin DoTs are uncleansable.

    It's still a terrible PvP spec compared to Marksman, though.

  15. #15
    Plane Walker Enaki's Avatar
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    There have been so many threads full of ideas to revamp Sab. While I don't want us to go back to the point where a gimmick version of it is the only competitive rouge spec we have, I would like to see it be more viable in competitive builds, and be the top Rogue AoE build though I think a lot of changes would be needed for that.

    Is a complete revamp necessary to get the soul there? Probably not, but even if you upped the damage to be truly competitive there are so many abilities that look good on paper that just don't play out in the game that makes going deep feel like wasted points.
    • "Utility Charges" - Why use these when others can apply faster and hit more targets? (Hence so many people saying please change these to bombs). My guess is that this has been left this way due to Silent Setup "hey you can pre-load this ability", but how many people actually do that? If these were changed to bombs, even if they were only single target then it would go a long way to bringing back utility to the Soul.
    • "Traps" - I don't know if this was intended for Solo, PVP or just general use but they have not played out well in the real world. In their current state they are limited by the fact that they are not tied to charges (meaning Charge Booster and High Explosives get little out of them). Perhaps Traps are meant to be the "Stealth" of Sab, limited opening use, but if that's the case they need to be much more boom or tie-in effects to charges/bombs and a GCD tradeoff.
    • "Range Abilities" - These feel more like "we need to fill out to 51 points" then actual design intentions of the Soul. Regardless if you're going ranged you have to put 10 points in to get the same distance that other ranged souls (excluding Bard). 10% of your points just to be able to stand 15 meters back and still not able to use Traps unless you run in or there is movement in the fight. The other problem is that this limits soul synergy as now you have an entire "branch" where only one point can be used for non-sab abilities.
    If you address those items and tweak the damage up I think the Soul would see a lot more use.


    One DPS request that I've seen though that I'd really like to see implemented is some form of double charge/combo point generation ability. Perhaps change Charge Booster so the next charge applied after a detonate/finisher would give 2 of that charge and two combo points. If you did that and moved Rapid Setup to 31 points and a beefed up Land Mines to 51 points that would make the rotations feel faster and be in line with other classes that have multi-combo point generation, if not a little more steady. This might make it OP in PVP, but if you made each charge do a "hit" check on detonate that could balance it out.
    Telarans on class balance: Rock is overpowered. Paper is fine. - Scissors

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