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Thread: Exact damage number AP gives?

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    Banned Shadowprison's Avatar
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    Default Exact damage number AP gives?

    Just curious how well it actually scales.

    80 AP increase with savage strike (100% scaling) = 11 more damage = 0.1375 Damage/AP

    80 AP increase with Backstab (250% scaling) = 29 more damage = 0.145 Damage/AP


    Obviously its not an exact number, but IMO it shows just how bad AP scales.

    Difference between 0 AP savage strike and 1200 AP savage strike is only 160-170 damage. That seems extremely poor.
    Last edited by Shadowprison; 12-07-2011 at 09:56 PM.

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    Rift Disciple Savage Henry's Avatar
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    It is what it is and it isn't going to change.

    Say they change the scaling then they'd have to change all the armor stats to fit the new scale, and you would end up at the same place doing the same damage with a different scale and baby jesus would cry.

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    "Stock" AP rating is .1 Damage per 1 AP.

    1000 AP gives +100 damge.

    However, many abilities have +% bonuses (51 Bladedancer Spec gives Quick Strike and Precision Strike +350% AP contribution, so a Quick Strike would get the 100 damage, plus an extra 350 damage).

    Note that this damage is before "ability hits X% harder" bonuses, and even before the X1.5 (or 1.7 for 20 Sin) crit damage.

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    its well known that ap scales like ****, but the fact remains that the crit soft cap is so unbelievably easy to get to and virtually every ability we have is boosted by AP. u still need to stack ap once yer at crit soft cap (40%)

    quite literally the only spec that benefits from going super crazy high on crit is sabdancer, and with all the changes no one plays sab dancer...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Henry View Post
    It is what it is and it isn't going to change.

    Say they change the scaling then they'd have to change all the armor stats to fit the new scale, and you would end up at the same place doing the same damage with a different scale and baby jesus would cry.
    that makes no sense at all.... if they changed the way ap scales. it wouldnt effect any of the armor stats...

    ALL they need to do is make rogues the same as warrs in the fact that 1str=.75 ap for them, yet dex = .5 ap for us. there you go, simple as hell, and would make ap alot better
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    Quote Originally Posted by 420MySTiC View Post
    that makes no sense at all.... if they changed the way ap scales. it wouldnt effect any of the armor stats...

    ALL they need to do is make rogues the same as warrs in the fact that 1str=.75 ap for them, yet dex = .5 ap for us. there you go, simple as hell, and would make ap alot better
    warriors scale much worse with ap than we do. also, all that change would do is make it so we favor strength over dex at crit softcap.

    @op there is no perfect number. there are far too many scale factors to consider based on your particular build. im too lazy to go grab the formula, but i know easymodex has posted it numerous times on these boards, and im pretty sure its been posted in most of the so called guides that arent kept up to date.
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    I remember this:
    Quote Originally Posted by SoAnIs View Post
    No. Your DPS will actually go down, due to the way whetstones are added in. If that weren't the case DPS would be identical.

    1H Weapons are normalized to 2.8s speed (IIRC, got this number in beta 5 when they added normalization in. I don't think it's changed, but could test again).

    Real Damage = Base Damage + ((Weapon DPS + (Attack Power * Attack Power Coefficient) / 10) * 2.8)
    Solving for Attack Power Coefficient yields:
    Attack Power Coefficient = (-5 * (5 * Base Damage - 5 * Real Damage + 14 * Weapon DPS)) / (7 * Attack Power)
    Now that real damage doesn't take crit into account, but thats easy: Real Damage * Crit Rate * Crit Multiplier + Real Damage = Average Damage
    eg 100 damage attack, 1.5x multiplier, 0.3x crit rate (30%): 100*1.5*0.3+100=145 average damage
    So, after factoring everything for neatness:

    Average Damage = ((7 * Attack Power * Attack Power Coefficient + 5 * (5 * Base Damage + 14 * Weapon DPS)) * (Crit Multiplier * Crit Rate + 1)) / 25

    End simple algebra, time for simple multivariable calculus.
    To find the optimal AP:Crit ratio we want to find the gradient (Partial derivatives as a vector in N-dimensional space.) of the above equation with respect to ∂Attack Power and ∂Crit Rate

    ∂Average Damage/∂Attack Power = (7 * Attack Power Coefficient * (Crit Multiplier * Crit Rate + 1)) / 25
    ∂Average Damag/∂Crit Rate = ((7 * Attack Power * Attack Power Coefficient + 5 * (5 * Base Damage + 14 * Weapon DPS)) * Crit Multiplier) / 25
    Gradient Damage(AP, CritRate) = <(7 * Attack Power Coefficient * (Crit Multiplier * Crit Rate + 1)) / 25, ((7 * Attack Power * Attack Power Coefficient + 5 * (5 * Base Damage + 14 * Weapon DPS)) * Crit Multiplier) / 25>

    The magnitude (Square root of the dot product of the vector with itself) of that vector tells you the rate that your damage increases as you increase AP and Crit at their optimal ratio. The ratio of the terms is that optimal ratio.

    Of course, that's only for one ability. To figure it out across all abilities you have to take a weighted average with the fraction of your total damage done by each ability as the weights. Doing so is left as an exercise to the reader, since your build and rotation will be different from mine.
    Last edited by gnaa; 12-08-2011 at 06:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by livnthedream View Post
    warriors scale much worse with ap than we do. also, all that change would do is make it so we favor strength over dex at crit softcap.

    @op there is no perfect number. there are far too many scale factors to consider based on your particular build. im too lazy to go grab the formula, but i know easymodex has posted it numerous times on these boards, and im pretty sure its been posted in most of the so called guides that arent kept up to date.

    you obviously dont understand what i wrote... i said they should make DEX for us like STR is for warr... ******.... instead of .5ap/dex, give us .75ap/dex....

    also it doesnt matter if u get str or dex after crit soft cap... dex = .5ap str = .5 ap
    Last edited by 420MySTiC; 12-08-2011 at 06:34 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 420MySTiC View Post
    you obviously dont understand what i wrote... i said they should make DEX for us like STR is for warr... ******.... instead of .5ap/dex, give us .75ap/dex....

    also it doesnt matter if u get str or dex after crit soft cap... dex = .5ap str = .5 ap
    This solves nothing, and causes more problems.

    A) It doesn't solve anything to do with AP scaling.

    B) It makes our itemization more limited.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    B) It makes our itemization more limited.
    This. Currently for a number of slots, BIS or near-BIS gear post critcap has str/ap. As an example, consider the Gorget of Lies off Estrode, second to the Akylios neck piece (discounting the sans hit R8). Yes the similar dex-based Amulet of Recrimination would poke ahead for rogues with this change - but both neck pieces would behind where the Gorget is currently.

    Even with the modest gain that .75 AP from dex would give, it doesn't compensate for being further pingeonholed into dex/crit pieces when you're solidly at or above cap.
    Last edited by bitnine; 12-08-2011 at 07:47 AM.

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