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Thread: Zyzyx fixes rogues again.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Default Zyzyx fixes rogues again.

    So I have seen a fair number of people putting up “How I would fix rogues” threads, and rather than responding to each one with what I do/don’t like I figured I would make my own thread. I figure hell, if Trion listened to me about nerfing MM (before 1.5 even came out) maybe we wouldn't have had a taste at equal dps that we had in 1.5. We did though and I'd like to believe trion does in fact want all the callings to be competitive in pve dps. These are intended to be minimalistic changes with significant consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Poochymama View Post
    Emphasizing this for truth

    1.5

    Encounters of top dps

    Warrior: 5
    Rogue: 1
    Mages: 4
    Clerics: 0

    Times in the top 10

    Warrior: 34
    Rogue: 34
    Mages: 32
    Clerics: 0

    Times in the top 25

    Warrior: 82
    Rogue: 88
    Mages: 69
    Clerics: 11

    vs.

    1.6


    Encounters of top dps

    Warrior: 3
    Rogue: 0
    Mages: 7
    Clerics: 0

    Times in the top 10

    Warrior: 32
    Rogue: 2
    Mages: 63
    Clerics: 3

    Times in the top 25

    Warrior: 87
    Rogue: 28
    Mages: 123
    Clerics: 12

    You can tell that they put alot of time into class balance as they actually had the game pretty close to balanced in 1.5. All they really needed to do was fix clerics, slightly up mage st(by 100 or so), and slightly up Rogue AoE. 1.6 killed all that hard work and brought the game back to square one(class balance wise).

    As you can see from this post, Rogues are behind in both single target and AoE. I tried to find ways to bring us up to par and scale well in the future without making us "OP".

    Disclaimer: Not all of these changes are my ideas. These are a combination of the changes I have read on the forums and liked the most and some of my own. Whatever balance changes are made to bring rogue dps in line with the other callings need to be made so that they scale relative to other callings or we will be having these discussions with every raid tier/patch. I can't know these exact numbers so for any scaling bonuses assume some leeway given proper testing.

    Bladedancer:: The main problem with blade dancer is that all the reactive abilities are useless in a raid environment. Contra tempo is a good solution to this problem in that it gives dps for those talent points spent in branches that wouldn't otherwise give dps for the raiding rogue bladedancer.

    Turn the Tide : : Proc off of Crits as well

    Improved false blade: removed and replaced with a talent that looks strangely similar to “Magnify Pain.” It is ridiculous that 17 Sin is the only way to get increased crit damage. If you made it 5-10-15% then BD would be good to go IMO. With the trend toward trion nudging us toward 51 point builds it would be good for bd to have its own crit bonus especially if the synergy crystal is going to force us into a 51 pt build.

    Deadly dance: Now affects compound attack as well

    Contra Tempo: Now affects Twin Strike as well. Increase ap scaling bonus to 15%/soul point spend or whatever is necessary to reach target balance numbers.

    (The next changes are along the same lines as the above contra tempo change)

    Nightblade: The synergy crystal bonus has reduces this souls dependency on fiery spike significantly since this soul last saw the rogue raiding doctrine in 1.1 through 1.2. It is a little behind still in both single target and aoe dps.

    Blackout: Increase this to get us in the target range for dps. The scourge procs are fine something like:
    Now increases the damage of death based attacks by 10% and 3% per point in nightblade spent above 44. (Leave the scourge procs as they are.)

    Ebon Fury: Now no longer deplete scourge of darkness procs when this cool down effect is active.

    Lingering Flame: Your Weapon Flare and Fiery chains attacks have a 5/10/15/20/25% chance to apply a fiery spike to its target.

    Dark containment: Now interrupts the target if it is immune to incapacitate like effects. NB needs an interrupt to be viable in raids.

    Marksman:

    Fan Out: Now awards a combo point on the target. (Prior to 1.5 when many rogues like myself agreed that this did not need to give combo points this ability propagated Electrified Munitions to all targets. That has changed and so must fan out.)

    Electified Munitions/Silver tipped munitions/Vampiric Munitions: Will continue to have proc chance reduced by number of targets hit ,but will have the original percent chance to proc on the primary target.

    Example: Zyzyx uses fanout on players 1-8 while targeting player 1. Player 1 has a 100%/20% chance to be effected by (EM or STM / VM ). The remaining players 2-8 have a 12.5%/2.5% chance to be effected by (EM or STM / VM)

    Reasoning; it is annoying to have to build stacks of STM back up on a raid boss after adds spawn and it increases aoe dps which should be a goal for any balance decisions in the future.

    Controlled fire: Now increases damage bonus from attack power by 10% for every point spent in the marksman soul above 38. Obviously adjust this as needed. Marksman is only going to fall behind further and further in the next raid tier because it scales so poorly. This has to be changed for marksman to remain a viable dps soul.

    Assasin: Similar problem to blade dancer and pre 1.5 marksman in that it has several talent branches that are useless in a raid enviroment. Without a scaling passive (contratempo, controlled fire/EM, and blackout) 51 point assasin will remain useless in raids.

    "New scaling passive ability" (34 points most likely): Increases assasin dot damage by x% and increases by x% for every point in assasin above 34. Maybe have it also increase poison damage too. We don't want another EM though. I mean that 30%+ of the soul's dps comes from a passive buff.

    I personally would like to see assasin continue to shine in those murdantix/vlad/sicaron/plutonis situations. The fact that it relies so heavily on those dots should make it one of the highest single target souls in the game given that the soul has no aoe, raid utility, and cannot switch targets because so much of its dps is from dots.

    These next two are going to require the most work. They are so far behind.
    Ranger:Most of these changes are shots in the dark. The main point of them is that the pet needs to do a TON more damage and something needs to be done to make the ranger's single target dps increased. Also add some more scaling dps increases if you can somehow make this soul viable on its own.

    Improved quick shot My understanding is that the devs ruined this ability because they were concerned that its synergy with electric munitions was too powerful. Not because it was a "bug". The obvious solution is to adjust IQS so that it no longer procs EM. The devs chose to prevent IQS from procing any items or abilities though. This is not in line with other similar talents and makes rogues feel singled out.

    I suggest instead changing it to be the ranged version of serrated blades and allowing it to proc on crits instead of 100% of the time. Allow it to activate EM and other items/weapon enchantments so that it is in line with similar abilities. How it works currently is poor implementation. Part of the both problems is that it procs 100% of the time ,but the dot takes a second to do damage. This lead to players manipulating the ability by using swift shot afterwards to guarantee a dot proc and an EM proc. Not to mention early after the game's release sozu pointed out that it is a dps boost to take 2/3 of the talent instead of 3/3 in his popular namesake build. Talents should be better not WORSE the more points you put into them.


    King of the jungle Now allows for 100% pet reduction in aoe damage at 31 points spent in ranger soul. Allows better pet scaling either through increase in shared stats or a straight boost to pet damage based on the players attack power.

    Piercing shot: Increased armor reduction by 60%
    exposure: Increases pet damage by 5/10/15% per combo point the rogue has on the target.
    Improved trick shot: Now increases trick shot's damage by 15%
    Concussive blast:No longer has a cooldown. No longer interrupts the targets.
    Doubleshot: now gives 20% chance to fire an additional auto attack per point.

    Saboteur: I really love this soul even though many vocal personalities on the forums seem to despise it. Saboteur was our highest dps soul in the beginning of rift and for about 3 months between 1.3 and 1.5. Something needs to be done to make bombs/traps useful in both a pvp and a raid setting.

    ALL BOMBS Any charges on any target hit by any bomb are detonated when the target takes damage. No combo points are used. High explosives is applied to all targets that had charges on them.
    Demolition specialist: Since this is made redundant by the previous change, Now increases damage done by charges detonated by anihilate by 50/100%.
    ember charge: Now a bomb. Applies previous 5% dmg bonus debuff to all targets it hits for 60 seconds.
    Splinter charge: Now a bomb. Applies previous armor debuff to all targets it hits for 60 seconds.
    Caltrop charge: Now a bomb. Applies previous snare debuff to all targets it hits for 60 seconds.
    Concussion charge: Now a bomb. Applies previous stun to all targets it hits for 60 seconds.
    Incriminate:Now increases damage done while incriminate is used by 50%

    Sab synergy crystal:(2) Now increases damage done by ALL bombs by 15%
    (4) Increases the damage of High explosives by 30%
    Barbed Trap: 200% attack power bonus
    Booby trap: 200% attack power bonus
    The trapper: No longer reduces the cooldown of traps. Now doubles the effectiveness of traps.
    Last edited by Zyzyx; 12-02-2011 at 04:57 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Charge booster: After a detonate the next charge placed on a target will instead place 2

    EDIT: Walsy!!!!
    Last edited by Zyzyx; 12-02-2011 at 05:01 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  3. #3
    Ascendant Cromagis's Avatar
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    200% AP Bonus..huh..?


    ;_;
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    Your opinion is wrong and you should feel bad for sharing it with the world.
    11/11 HK(World top 10), 4/4 ROTP, Greenscale/RoS Current-Content Conqueror, GP Cleared, TDH Cleared.

    Prestige Rank 8 in a weekend baby.

  4. #4
    Ascendant charliekelly's Avatar
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    for sabs, if you wanna boost damage, all damage increases should be done to like high explosives and charge booster. things that are not available to lower tier sab specs.

    annihilation bomb should work more like an aoe finisher. you should increase the targets hit by dem specialist to like 2/4 or 3/6 for the 2 levels respectively. you should be able to throw on 5 blast or spike charges, det with anh bomb and for the enemies hit, all charges should be applied, high explosives should be applied, and combo points should be consumed. reduce the cooldown to 10 seconds, and have it require combo points to be used. is this a lot of damage? sure. but it hits fewer enemies and is no more damage than mages or clerics can dish out aoe right now.

    fragmentation bomb in it of itself is pretty useless. its a dps loss, and serves no real purpose. it should be retooled to work more like shatter bomb from the hk trash. a ground targeted aoe, that when it hits a player, shrapnel is spread to other nearby enemies with no target limit. this makes it a good ability to use vs very large packs of enemies. as i see it, charges should be used as above for small packs of enemies and single target, and for larger packs of enemies you should be able to use bombs.

    chemical bomb, when are you going to just quadruple the damage? even that wont make it all too good. however, if the damage increased dramatically, chemical bomb + frag bomb would make for great mass aoe for large packs of enemies. the target limit should be removed here as well. all bombs should be like rain of arrows, being no target limit.

  5. #5
    RIFT Guide Writer Gyle's Avatar
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    Zyzyx... you bastard :P

    I REALLY like the dark containment suggestion, that would help out NB a lot, and Fiery Spike spreading would be awesome, might turn out to be crazy OP tho.

    *edit* oh and after doing some testing on IQS today i totally agree with your IQS turning into the ranged Serrated Blades and letting it proc EM. I almost suggested it myself. That one should really actually happen.
    Last edited by Gyle; 12-02-2011 at 06:01 PM.
    Hastati (50 warrior), Tsar (50 cleric), Tsaritsa (50 Mage)
    Guides: 51 Bladedancer, Bloodstalker, Nightblade
    DPS Rogue <Trinity>
    5/8 ID; HK Conqueror

  6. #6
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Bard:

    Coda of fury: Now an aoe cleanse instead of aoe damage.

    new ability: battle rez
    Last edited by Zyzyx; 12-02-2011 at 06:08 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  7. #7
    Plane Walker Enaki's Avatar
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    Yes! Please make Sab utility functional by making them bombs instead of charges!
    Telarans on class balance: Rock is overpowered. Paper is fine. - Scissors

  8. #8
    Sword of Telara
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    Like I said in another thread, they need to give casted shots better AP scaling than instants, or you reach a point where all instants are better than any casted shot.

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    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    ~Infiltrator~
    Make Ambush our 5 point root.

    THAT would be interesting ;)
    Last edited by Zaros; 12-02-2011 at 08:11 PM.
    ~Quiescent

  10. #10
    Rift Master Zeypher's Avatar
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    Just amazed at the quote in the op.

    Trion ****ed up big time, sigh.....why did they have to boost mage dps by 100000000000+

  11. #11
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    Rogues had thier adjustments in 1.5 time to wait until 1.9... Enjoy the wait.
    Last edited by Undrsiege; 12-02-2011 at 08:27 PM.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undrsiege View Post
    Rogues had thier adjustments in 1.5 time to wait until 1.9... Enjoy the wait.
    I need to add you to my troll list. Aren't you a cleric?
    ~Quiescent

  13. #13
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Exposure is stupid. Most of the rest is fine. They are already planning on boosting Controlled Fire, but I think a better solution is to add AP contribution to base MM attacks, like 100% for Empowered Shot and 50% for instants, then leave Controlled Fire where it is now.

    Most of the rest is not going to happen, probably ever.

  14. #14
    RIFT Guide Writer Gyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Most of the rest is not going to happen, probably ever.
    ^This. I'm sorry Zyzyx, but most of the suggestions here would just never occur. They might just balance out rogue DPS, but its purely academic, because most of them would not happen.
    Hastati (50 warrior), Tsar (50 cleric), Tsaritsa (50 Mage)
    Guides: 51 Bladedancer, Bloodstalker, Nightblade
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    5/8 ID; HK Conqueror

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    Sword of Telara Gynxz's Avatar
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    Bard HK Crystal
    2pc: The current 4pc
    4pc: Cadence: On full application, applies 2 extra combo points. (or channel lasts 2 more second)

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