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Thread: Let's talk PVP

  1. #31
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    You are correct. scaling up from 1v1. Rogues have fan out which does like 200 damage aoe to 8 targets. Compare that to warriors that aoe fear entire teams while they kill healers in 1 or 2 gcd's with the option aoe silencing everyone from the backline or clerics and mages who kill entire teams in seconds. Once you look past the fact that other callings can kill us 100% of the time 1v1 you see they are significantly better than us in bigger scale pvp.
    Massive over-simplification.

    Warriors killing a healer in 1gcd? come on dont be silly...

    In black garden or library maybe aoe fear and silences can make a huge difference but most WF involve small as well as large skirmishes.

    Lets think about the WFs:

    Black garden - zergfest but rogues assisting on targets is nasty
    Library - same as garden
    Steppes - flagrunning - need I say more?
    Scion - crap WF so I don't care what classes pwn
    Codex - absoulte heaven for rogues - total gankfest and flag ninja/guard.

    Well played rogue or small team of rogues can turn the tide of any WF imho

  2. #32
    Rift Disciple iontheable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensual View Post
    Massive over-simplification.

    Warriors killing a healer in 1gcd? come on dont be silly...

    In black garden or library maybe aoe fear and silences can make a huge difference but most WF involve small as well as large skirmishes.

    Lets think about the WFs:

    Black garden - zergfest but rogues assisting on targets is nasty
    Library - same as garden
    Steppes - flagrunning - need I say more?
    Scion - crap WF so I don't care what classes pwn
    Codex - absoulte heaven for rogues - total gankfest and flag ninja/guard.

    Well played rogue or small team of rogues can turn the tide of any WF imho
    These are great points, to elaborate. When I play the new BG, stockpile, I'm able to group with 2 other rogues and guard a Crystal cap point...from anyone..3 sins burn anything quickly..same with Dex..

    In W.Steppes, I run RS/MM/Sin(or bard if I have pocket heals) And I am able to get across the map so quickly..I've 3 capped several games.

  3. #33
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mezkh View Post
    And? Would you give up a Riftstalker nerf or not? If we're talking about souls that break PvP, lets start there shall we?
    Your argument is a flacid embarrassment, but sure. I would be fine in PvP if they removed RS entirely. Most mages would be fine if they removed Dominator. The problem is Dominator requires no skill at all. You simply energy starve rogues and warriors to death and there is no counter and no response, not even diminishing returns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mezkh View Post
    What Zyzyx doesn't tell you is those specs that can 'beat' his rogue specs are all duelspecs that are very much subpar in anything scaled up from 1v1.
    Dominator is incredibly powerful in solo and group PvP. It really sounds like you have no idea what you're doing, although I haven't actually seen you play.

  4. #34
    Banned Shadowprison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mezkh View Post
    Would trade you whatever 'fixes' for Dominator in exchange for fixing Riftstalker. I'd be happy with that.
    We can lose riftstalker when Mages can stop facetanking melee and come out on top.

    Oh yeah, and when melee rogues actually gets mobility.

  5. #35
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensual View Post
    Well played rogue or small team of rogues can turn the tide of any WF imho
    Yeah, this is the problem. It takes a team of rogues to do the same things 1 or 2 players of any other calling can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  6. #36
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    Yeah, this is the problem. It takes a team of rogues to do the same things 1 or 2 players of any other calling can do.
    Agreed. Assassin is great guys. If you get like 10 Assassins in a well-trained and coordinated special ops team crawling across the warfront surgically striking targets of opportunity, they are totally worth 1-2 mages. Stop crying.

  7. #37
    Telaran
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    Dude you made me felll outof my chair........LMAO

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Your argument is a flacid embarrassment, but sure. I would be fine in PvP if they removed RS entirely. Most mages would be fine if they removed Dominator. The problem is Dominator requires no skill at all. You simply energy starve rogues and warriors to death and there is no counter and no response, not even diminishing returns.
    We've got Zyzyx saying Dom is hard, and you're saying it's faceroll easy. Zyzyx is a troll though, hmm.

    But hang on, energy starve with what? TI and Transference cooldowns? Rogues aren't like Warriors with their regen problems, it'll take one out of the game for 5 or so seconds, and then that cleric you didn't drain instead will punish you for it.

    TI and transference have a diminishing return, it's the cooldown built into the skill. So as a Dom you use one or two, then introduce a second threat? and a third? Dom only has so many meaningful cooldowns to go around, catch them when something they need isn't available and they are as soft as tissue.

    Dom is always on or near the top for 1v1 dueling, because control classes own that aspect of gameplay. Like Aion's Spiritmaster. It's not an argument for OP unless you're actually trying to make a boring game where the classes are 1v1 balanced.


    Dominator is incredibly powerful in solo and group PvP. It really sounds like you have no idea what you're doing, although I haven't actually seen you play.
    MMO's don't really provide a good outlet for Solo PvP. Dom is good in group play because they counter a strong class like Cleric. Dom's more balanced in group play though because their single target abilities can't be keep all the opposing players down, and the skill in the class is using the right abilities at the right times on the right players. It's hardly faceroll in that capacity.

    In saying that Dom's are good in 1v1, it's not hard to put a fit for purpose Rogue build together that can push them.

    Now the problem with NB/RS in group PvP is that it doesn't scale down the more players you add. Each NB/RS is a powerhouse that requires teamwork to put down, has the mobility to enter and leave fights almost at will, and has enough offensive tools to take out other players by themselves, allowing them to act alone and be effective. Unless you are a Dominator, it's pretty much impossible to peel a Riftstalker from their chosen target, the Riftstalker has so much mitigation and defensives they can ignore a lot of incoming damage while they do their work, and they've got the tools to escape afterwards, so they aren't even a suicide one for one trade type build, they'll just keep eating through a team.

    Dom's got great control, moderate/poor damage ability, and your defense is only as good as you can juggle cooldowns.

    RS has the unholy trifecta - Offense, Defense, Mobilty. It's the ultimate pug pvp class to play, because the opposing team needs some sort of teamwork to really nullify what you do, while you don't rely on anyone, though any help you do get does scale your effectiveness to often crazy heights.

    I play a lot more Dom now, out of both fun, challenge, and more often these days, necessity; to actually have something to slow down a rampant opposing R8 Rogue(s) who wants to eat me. The problem I have is on my cluster I'm often singled out as threat #1, which is tough when you're a pug.

    I'm on Briarcliff, not sure where you are, but given guild has gone and I'm not playing much I'm happy to move and find out how good either you or Zyzyx are.

    Given I'm actually pretty much almost done with this game, if either of you want to 'trade up' to a Mage, I'm sure it could be arranged. Full P8 gear, 4 piece HK.4

    /End Sperg
    Last edited by Mezkh; 12-03-2011 at 09:22 PM.

  9. #39
    Ascendant Tigruz's Avatar
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    Zyzyx you are just once again blowing smoke out of your ***. The spec I'm running eats almost every mage alive. Having Deaden and Planar Disruption nullify any of the significant Mage abilities. Eradicate removes Split Personalities, as well as other essential Mage buffs.

    I have a rank 8 rogue, and a rank 6 mage. I can tell you that a well skilled high ranking rogue can take on a well skilled high ranking mage any time of the day. I've had multiple mages come to me and ask me to duel them so they can learn how to beat a rogue.

    Stop being all gloom and doom and maybe your opinions and ideas would be taken more seriously. I respect your PVE statements, but when it comes to PvP I'm sorry you know very little about it.
    <Retired>

  10. #40
    Rift Disciple Locovato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Your argument is a flacid embarrassment, but sure. I would be fine in PvP if they removed RS entirely. Most mages would be fine if they removed Dominator. The problem is Dominator requires no skill at all. You simply energy starve rogues and warriors to death and there is no counter and no response, not even diminishing returns.



    Dominator is incredibly powerful in solo and group PvP. It really sounds like you have no idea what you're doing, although I haven't actually seen you play.
    If i had a choice in a build to fight a Chloro/Dom mage (only hard mage to kill) it would be with 51 sin/ 15 infil. And trust me when i say this, the fight can go either way, but since i'v fought plenty of them in open world and duel's, i'm confident i would win in more times then not.

    Exposed > Jagged > Puncture > Foul Play > Backstab > Impale ... <Anathema + Skill away>
    Assasinate or Paralyzing strike depending if you baited his break free with foul play. Build to 5 with a devestating FB.

    First round is just to build up towards the burst kill after you blow slip away. Bleeds do a lot of damage but don't bait his CD's for insta heals. After you throw up your Healing reduction, you blow slipaway not defensively but offensively because are you going for the kill.

    The battle is about who blows CD's first loses, you have 5 second magic immunity, and a CC break + slip away.

    They have instant heals + energy dump (Transference), Traitorous influence (5 stacks, drains energy on GCD usage), and Lastly stormshackle.

    Like i said, i do so much damage on opener, bait the break free, and used cleansed soul and slip away offensively and will pull the win most of the time. ALL or NONE.
    Last edited by Locovato; 12-03-2011 at 10:00 PM.
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  11. #41
    Rift Disciple Locovato's Avatar
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    In WF's and large scaled pvp, i would say NB/RS and MM to be the best builds to run. Target switching, defensive CD's, kiting, all those play huge parts in group pvp.

    On another note... In world pvp, 1v1's, or "Death Match" situations, i'd run 51 sin/ 15 infil over anything else, i don't lose to other rogue builds or class's. There's exception's to everything, but that's what works for me.

    You don't want to be stuck in with 1 build for everything, if you are, your doing it wrong =P
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  12. #42
    Ascendant Tigruz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locovato View Post
    If i had a choice in a build to fight a Chloro/Dom mage (only hard mage to kill) it would be with 51 sin/ 15 infil. And trust me when i say this, the fight can go either way, but since i'v fought plenty of them in open world and duel's, i'm confident i would win in more times then not.

    Exposed > Jagged > Puncture > Foul Play > Backstab > Impale ... <Anathema + Skill away>
    Assasinate or Paralyzing strike depending if you baited his break free with foul play. Build to 5 with a devestating FB.

    First round is just to build up towards the burst kill after you blow slip away. Bleeds do a lot of damage but don't bait his CD's for insta heals. After you throw up your Healing reduction, you blow slipaway not defensively but offensively because are you going for the kill.

    The battle is about who blows CD's first loses, you have 5 second magic immunity, and a CC break + slip away.

    They have instant heals + energy dump (Transference), Traitorous influence (5 stacks, drains energy on GCD usage), and Lastly stormshackle.

    Like i said, i do so much damage on opener, bait the break free, and used cleansed soul and slip away offensively and will pull the win most of the time. ALL or NONE.
    Try 44MM/22RS. I think it's a better spec for handling Chloro/Doms. I also play a Chloro/Dom, so I know the general rotation they go through, which in turn helped me with a good counter to their play.

    They will always start off with Transmorgify to speed up their next casted ability. What you as a rogue need to do is either; A. Break Free if more than 20M away then use a blink to the mage, or B. Use Shadowstalk to get to the mage if within 20M.

    The Chloro/Dom will cast Storm Shackle on you afterwards, if you are fast enough (its about a 1 second or faster cast) rip off a Deaden and the mage is Silenced. If the mage succeeded in landing SS, then you can still blink to the mage to avoid taking any damage. If he manages to get too far away for blinks, turn your character around and Retreat towards him and blink ASAP so he can't LoS you. Next he will either cast Traitorous Influence or Nature's Fury. If NF is casted you can use Deaden or Planar Disruption (both off the GCD) and his heavy hitting Chloro damage is nullified. At some point he will also cast Split Personalities. If TI is on you, you can cast Eradicate without worrying about the TI damage. So make sure you remove his Split Personalities ASAP. With enough pressure on the Chloro/Dom as well as the constant Silences and Interrupts the 44MM/22RS spec has, the mage will be mainly focused on trying to survive at this point. He will be trying to use his cleanse right before his heal, so in a sense you have an extra GCD over him before he gets his heal off.

    I've used this backbone of a strategy vs. every chloro/dom I've faced 1 v 1 (in either a duel or out in the open field) and I've rarely lost. I think it's better than the 51Sin/15Inf spec because the mage CDs on SS, TI, and Transference are only 30 seconds each, where as Cleanse Soul is 2 minute CD. The MM silence is a 10 second CD (I think) and so is our RS interrupt.

    Against a Pyro/Dom or a full 51Pryo it's a bit different since they have way more damage than a Chloro. Against that spec it's a pure dps/CC race.
    <Retired>

  13. #43
    Ascendant Tigruz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locovato View Post
    In WF's and large scaled pvp, i would say NB/RS and MM to be the best builds to run. Target switching, defensive CD's, kiting, all those play huge parts in group pvp.

    On another note... In world pvp, 1v1's, or "Death Match" situations, i'd run 51 sin/ 15 infil over anything else, i don't lose to other rogue builds or class's. There's exception's to everything, but that's what works for me.

    You don't want to be stuck in with 1 build for everything, if you are, your doing it wrong =P
    I'd like to duel you sometime. I rarely lose to 51Sins, but they can get me if they spec 0pt BD

    Sidesteps is so OP against MM.
    <Retired>

  14. #44
    Telaran
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    Come on guys, my rank 2 mm does better than 80% in almost every other warfronts, and im a scrub. If you are having any problems with this class in pvp you really do need to l2p. Its so easy compared to my mage its not even funny.

  15. #45
    Banned Shadowprison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigruz View Post
    I'd like to duel you sometime. I rarely lose to 51Sins, but they can get me if they spec 0pt BD

    Sidesteps is so OP against MM.
    How? Unless they are 15MM instead of Inf, they will have no ranged capabilities.

    And 15MM version gets completely rolled over by casters.

    Gotta ask, are you using Hit weapons and runes on all available slots?

    If I was running Marksman I'd be using 2 Valorous Deathbringers.
    Last edited by Shadowprison; 12-03-2011 at 10:57 PM.

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