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Thread: Is Bard needed in less than a 20 man raid?

  1. #1
    Shield of Telara
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    Default Is Bard needed in less than a 20 man raid?

    For all of you smart people who have done the math etc... Is there really a point in having a bard in a 10 man raid... Given that the rogue playing the bard can pull ~2k DPS in a non-bard spec and you have a chloro for the energy regeneration and adequate healing otherwise.

    Assuming your typical 10 man raid requires 1-2 tanks, 1-3 healers, at the very max for most fights your going to have 6 DPSers. Throw in a bard, you have 5 max. Is that bard with his trash DPS + buffs/debuffs enough to make up not having a 2k DPS rogue?

    My thinking is... no, probably not. Has anyone actually done the math on it?
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  2. #2
    Plane Walker Mav986's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrifeV View Post
    For all of you smart people who have done the math etc... Is there really a point in having a bard in a 10 man raid... Given that the rogue playing the bard can pull ~2k DPS in a non-bard spec and you have a chloro for the energy regeneration and adequate healing otherwise.

    Assuming your typical 10 man raid requires 1-2 tanks, 1-3 healers, at the very max for most fights your going to have 6 DPSers. Throw in a bard, you have 5 max. Is that bard with his trash DPS + buffs/debuffs enough to make up not having a 2k DPS rogue?

    My thinking is... no, probably not. Has anyone actually done the math on it?
    Buff each individual dps by ~200?

    200x5 = 1000

    Passive healing ~300hps

    Buff individual hps by ~100?

    Buff survivability by x




    Bards do all of the above, so you decide.
    Last edited by Mav986; 12-01-2011 at 03:31 AM.

  3. #3
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    well, u should at least have an archont and chloro, if you dont have a bard.

    with mages pulling top dps id rather "waste" a rogues dps spot for support than a mage.

    having both bard and archont is kinda overkill on 10mans though
    Last edited by LittleKiwi; 12-01-2011 at 04:21 AM.
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  4. #4
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    No. Bards are balanced around 20 man raid content.
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    When you have a high-end 10 man, with very geared players, I am certain that a bard will be a net benefit to everyone. Verse of joy greatly helps warriors recover energy. Motifs make it at least a little easier on healers, not to mention stat buffs to everyone. Fervor is absolutely better than Living Energy. The only time you want Living Energy is when the bard needs to put up run speed or defiance in case you don't have enough resists.

    The heals, while not as high as mage/cleric, definitely are helpful. I haven't barded in a long time, but I specifically remember using Verse of Vitality when I knew an AoE was going to hit and it definitely made it easier on the chloros. Not to mention, cadence/motif of regeneration are basically like another soothing stream stack on the tank. Finally, if things get really hairy, a Virtuoso and Rejuvenation can literally prevent a wipe.

    I would never waste a bard on a 5-man dungeon, but I would definitely want one for 10-man bosses (not needed for trash).

    It's simple to just make your lowest DPS player go bard. Though a good bard is always better than a bad bard.

  6. #6
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    We run both buffbots in 10-mans -- bard and archon. Works great.

  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer Gyle's Avatar
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    It's really up to how you like to run your 10 mans. The nice thing about a bard is it adds heals + dps buffs. You might be able to get slightly higher net DPS if you replace the bard with one more high dps character, but you would also lose the healing, which can be significant in certain situations. There is a valid argument to be made for both using one, and not.
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    Shield of Telara Hellebron's Avatar
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    Considering an archon, warlord soul tank, chloro and a cleric healer, bard will only bring:

    Run speed
    3% more ability reduction
    5% more healing
    5% crit, although another rogue can overwrite with dauntless
    Scant amount of healing
    VoJ every 2 mins

    Archon is usually the better choice. If you have an archon, I would lose the bard, assuming you have a chloro. Remember the Archon is probly doing about 1k+ DPS too, and offers utility the bard doesn't, such as reflects.

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    Plane Walker Odaman's Avatar
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    We've never had an issue running bard & archon in 10mans. Usually asked the bards to dps when we did 5mans though.

  10. #10
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    In my opinion, as far as ten mans go, for most of the fights only 1 support is adequate, Archon or Bard. Either one buffs the raid comparitively throughout the duration of the fight, and each have necessary cooldowns as far as being funtional throughout the entire fight goes.
    Archon offers raid buffs, DPS burst phase, mana for a needy cleric (often the case in my ten mans :P ), and decent ST DPS.
    Bard offers raid buffs, mini DPS burn phase (VoJ, which includes partial mana to every caster and the extra energy for burning for the noncasters), and helpful raid healing, as well as excellent burst AoE CD.
    Either are can be very necessary, and I wouldnt see much harm in running both if you can manage, but 1 is adequate imo.

    EDIT: Bard also has the bigger energy buff (minorly, but bigger), and the Runspeed buff, which is a big help for fights like General in RotP.
    Last edited by Rootyy; 12-01-2011 at 11:47 AM.
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  11. #11
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    I was looking for more technical information from someone that has done parses and all of that etc... I realize the benefits of a bard, archon etc...

    But thanks for the responses anyways.
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  12. #12
    Shield of Telara Hellebron's Avatar
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    Parse what, I laid it out for you.

    Archon does 1k+, bard will be lucky to top 150 if they are focusing on healing. Bard brings anywhere from 300-700 HPS but it's not particularly useful HPS in that it's not spammable or easy to time for burst damage(you have to sit on 5 CPs to do that).

    You don't need parses, since the buffs are almost all covered by other classes, and covered by superior classes. Parses will lie too, as a bunch of Wars will get far more from 3% ability reduction and VoJ for instance. Some fights, a run speed buff is a large DPS increase.

    It depends. Use the list I posted

    Run speed
    3% more ability reduction
    5% more healing
    5% crit, although another rogue can overwrite with dauntless
    Scant amount of healing
    VoJ every 2 mins

    If your bard can do enough DPS to offset this then it's a gain. For instance if I'm MM, a bard in raid wouldn't help me much. I don't need the ability cost or VoJ. 5% crit is fine, that's maybe a 60 dps increase. I don't need the run speed as MM, its got super mobility. Healing increases may be needed, your mileage will very. So a 10 man full of MM, bard would do very little if you have an archon and chloro.

    Just do the math for your own raids.
    Last edited by Hellebron; 12-01-2011 at 12:11 PM.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrifeV View Post
    I was looking for more technical information from someone that has done parses and all of that etc... I realize the benefits of a bard, archon etc...

    But thanks for the responses anyways.
    It's been a while since I did it, but I believe a bard brings about ~100 dps per dps class, plus their own healing. I calculated using the marginal benefit... so the benefit bringing a bard brings vs having the chloro's living energy, etc...

    I think bringing one support is good for a 10 man, it's two that's overkill.

    DPS has gone way up and specs have changed though... that 100 dps number is a number that would change depending on raid comp, specs, etc... so tons of variables. If your issue is healing or defense, there's no problem with bringing two support. If your issue is dps, bring 1.
    Last edited by Mayi; 12-01-2011 at 12:49 PM.
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  14. #14
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayi View Post
    It's been a while since I did it, but I believe a bard brings about ~100 dps per dps class, plus their own healing. I calculated using the marginal benefit... so the benefit bringing a bard brings vs having the chloro's living energy, etc...

    I think bringing one support is good for a 10 man, it's two that's overkill.

    DPS has gone way up and specs have changed though... that 100 dps number is a number that would change depending on raid comp, specs, etc... so tons of variables. If your issue is healing or defense, there's no problem with bringing two support. If your issue is dps, bring 1.
    Stupid edit timer... I got my numbers by switching back and forth between bard and dps and watching how dps changes in 10 mans. I wondered the same thing.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellebron View Post
    Parse what, I laid it out for you.

    Archon does 1k+, bard will be lucky to top 150 if they are focusing on healing. Bard brings anywhere from 300-700 HPS but it's not particularly useful HPS in that it's not spammable or easy to time for burst damage(you have to sit on 5 CPs to do that).

    You don't need parses, since the buffs are almost all covered by other classes, and covered by superior classes. Parses will lie too, as a bunch of Wars will get far more from 3% ability reduction and VoJ for instance. Some fights, a run speed buff is a large DPS increase.

    It depends. Use the list I posted

    Run speed
    3% more ability reduction
    5% more healing
    5% crit, although another rogue can overwrite with dauntless
    Scant amount of healing
    VoJ every 2 mins

    If your bard can do enough DPS to offset this then it's a gain. For instance if I'm MM, a bard in raid wouldn't help me much. I don't need the ability cost or VoJ. 5% crit is fine, that's maybe a 60 dps increase. I don't need the run speed as MM, its got super mobility. Healing increases may be needed, your mileage will very. So a 10 man full of MM, bard would do very little if you have an archon and chloro.

    Just do the math for your own raids.
    Yea, sorry I should have been a little more clear.. I was referring to the people who were giving responses as if I had no idea what a bard did...
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