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Thread: MM crystal shouldn't be nerfed

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    Ascendant wickede's Avatar
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    Default MM crystal shouldn't be nerfed

    it is obvious that the nerf for this crystal was not thought though. MM is already the spec that benefits the least amount for gear and raid buffs because of the fact that almost nothing will modify your EM damage other than your weapon dps. take that into consideration, and you are nerfing the crystal that will only affect those who are raid geared in HK, causing MM to scale even worse with gear than it does already. these changes won't affect the lower level of players who may do a lot of dps in MM, but the quick shot change is going to bring them in line or behind other classes/specs regardless. this HK crystal nerf is an overkill to high end raiders who use MM, and as people gear up their characters even more, MM will fall further and further behind until something is done. i suggest leaving the crystal alone for now as the easiest fix to this problem facing high end raiders, and in the long run make a change to help MM scale better with gear and raid buffs as other specs do.

    edit-EM does not scale AT ALL with gear, only weapon dps. no gear and full gear will not affect how hard EM is hitting, the HK crystal is the only scale from gear we get to EM, please do not nerf that.
    Last edited by wickede; 11-08-2011 at 09:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wickede View Post
    it is obvious that the nerf for this crystal was not thought though. MM is already the spec that benefits the least amount for gear and raid buffs because of the fact that almost nothing will modify your EM damage other than your weapon dps. take that into consideration, and you are nerfing the crystal that will only affect those who are raid geared in HK, causing MM to scale even worse with gear than it does already. these changes won't affect the lower level of players who may do a lot of dps in MM, but the quick shot change is going to bring them in line or behind other classes/specs regardless. this HK crystal nerf is an overkill to high end raiders who use MM, and as people gear up their characters even more, MM will fall further and further behind until something is done. i suggest leaving the crystal alone for now as the easiest fix to this problem facing high end raiders, and in the long run make a change to help MM scale better with gear and raid buffs as other specs do.
    I do think the MM crystal should have been nerfed. One piece of gear shouldn't be that powerful. I however don't agree with the IQS nerf as MM aren't OP until they get that crystal, and the IQS "bug" added spice to an otherwise dull rotation.
    And the answer to this ridiculous balance pendulum was always "just purge them!" - Rizaz

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    Ascendant wickede's Avatar
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    i don't this the IQS nerf is needed either, but i can see why they want MM to be slightly behind in dps because of the utility and range it has. with IQS MM can be pretty powerful without a 4 piece, but it complicates the rotation and spec building to the point where only high end raiders will really consider doing it. my rotation consists of 8 or so buttons, 2 being macros for more than 1 attack, i could not use IQS and make a 2 button spec if i wanted.

    another suggestion to keeping MM viable is make EM scale with AP or something, and set it so that a fairly decent HK geared raider with a 4 piece would hit as hard as one does now, that way it will scale well for all levels of gear.

    these MM changes are killing MM in end game raiding, leaving it to what it was pre 1.5, a useless spec with a purge.
    Last edited by wickede; 11-08-2011 at 09:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wickede View Post
    i don't this the IQS nerf is needed either, but i can see why they want MM to be slightly behind in dps because of the utility and range it has. with IQS MM can be pretty powerful without a 4 piece, but it complicates the rotation and spec building to the point where only high end raiders will really consider doing it. my rotation consists of 8 or so buttons, 2 being macros for more than 1 attack, i could not use IQS and make a 2 button spec if i wanted.

    another suggestion to keeping MM viable is make EM scale with AP or something, and set it so that a fairly decent HK geared raider with a 4 piece would hit as hard as one does now, that way it will scale well for all levels of gear.

    these MM changes are killing MM in end game raiding, leaving it to what it was pre 1.5, a useless spec with a purge.
    The thing about the IQS nerf though (and why I don't agree with it) is that MM was only ahead of melee (bloodstalker) once they got the 4pc. Nerfing IQS nerfs all MM, not just the MM (4pc) that needed to be nerfed. Also, it's never a good idea to nerf two things at once, especially things of that magnitude. You're much better off nerfing one and letting it pan out to see if 2 needs to be nerfed...ALWAYS.
    And the answer to this ridiculous balance pendulum was always "just purge them!" - Rizaz

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    Nerf the Synergy Crystal, nerf the buggy IQS mechanic, I don't care if every dot procs that way, it's just dumb.

    Buff Silver Tip to be 30% Damage(3% per application) increase instead of 20%. Problem solved.

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    Ascendant wickede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poochymama View Post
    The thing about the IQS nerf though (and why I don't agree with it) is that MM was only ahead of melee (bloodstalker) once they got the 4pc. Nerfing IQS nerfs all MM, not just the MM (4pc) that needed to be nerfed. Also, it's never a good idea to nerf two things at once, especially things of that magnitude. You're much better off nerfing one and letting it pan out to see if 2 needs to be nerfed...ALWAYS.
    nothing needed to be nerfed at all, even with a 4 piece bloodstalker or NB can beat an MM of equal gear, let alone the fact that warriors have 1 dps spec that will beat us single target and blow us away in aoe. it's a poor overlook of how MM really did compared to other specs leading to huge nerfs that will once again make MM only good for the purge.

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    Ascendant wickede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taraern View Post
    Nerf the Synergy Crystal, nerf the buggy IQS mechanic, I don't care if every dot procs that way, it's just dumb.

    Buff Silver Tip to be 30% Damage(3% per application) increase instead of 20%. Problem solved.
    another decent idea, overall it would still be a dps loss, but atleast something we can manage and will slightly help the scaling of gear and buffs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wickede View Post
    even with a 4 piece bloodstalker or NB can beat an MM of equal gear,
    I don't know about that. A good marksman with a proper IQS rotation was 200-250 dps ahead of a equally geared bloodstalker/2hParagon, even on the most melee friendly fights in the game, while at 35m range.

    Bloodstalker is good, but I don't see it pulling 3.2k on Murdantix with current gear lvls and no relic (that's what MM did).
    Last edited by Poochymama; 11-08-2011 at 10:11 PM.
    And the answer to this ridiculous balance pendulum was always "just purge them!" - Rizaz

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    Rift Disciple Scrumdiddly's Avatar
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    It's still going to be our highest ranged dps spec (correct me if I'm wrong). And it will still be doing respectable dps from range with good utility and an easy rotation; which seems to be exactly what Trion has in mind for the spec. I.e. I wouldn't expect it to be buffed back, even slightly.

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    Rift Disciple Locovato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poochymama View Post
    I do think the MM crystal should have been nerfed. One piece of gear shouldn't be that powerful. I however don't agree with the IQS nerf as MM aren't OP until they get that crystal, and the IQS "bug" added spice to an otherwise dull rotation.
    I'm not trying to troll you but.... exactly how powerful is it? do you actually know how powerful it is, or do you just say it cause its 50% increase instead of 30% ?

    Take a Marksman parse without improved quick shot "bug". After looking at the damage breakdown you will see Electrified Munitions = 20% of total damage done. So here's an equation to total how "powerful" the 4piece set bonus is at 50%.

    Total parse damage 1850
    Electrified = 20% of total parse damage.
    Take 20% + 50% and you get a 10% dps gain from that 4 piece.

    Now lets compare.... Assassin's crystal. 30% more damage from Assassin's damage over time abilities. So since its 30% boost its less powerful?

    Total parse damage 1850
    % of damage from bleeds/dots 32%.
    So you take 32% + 30% = 9.66% dps gain from 4piece.

    so... in other words, marksman crystal is no more powerful then assassin's ( .34)

    which narrow's it down to 1 simple fact, IQS giving rogues an extra EM proc every 2 gcd's (mean 3 for every 2) threw it off causing it to scale better.

    In conclusion? both IQS and CRYSTAL gets nerfed to result in a total 6% damage increase boost after obtaining 4piece hammerknell gear. (15% currently, to 6% = 11% nerf = overkill)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locovato View Post
    % of damage from bleeds/dots 32%.
    I don't really agree with this part of your math. Reason is that the dots in the parse hold like 75% of the damage that the 2 piece assassin crystal bonus gives as expose weakness debuffs and if you remove that then you end up with closer to 20-25% of total dps that scales with the 4 piece bonus.

    However if we just compare the crystals then the assassin 2 piece bonus is actually more of a dps increase than the MM 4 piece bonus and assassin 4 piece bonus is better than the MM 2 piece bonus. So MM crystal is not really out of line in its current live version and certainly not when EM no longer procs from IQS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Locovato View Post
    I'm not trying to troll you but.... exactly how powerful is it? do you actually know how powerful it is, or do you just say it cause its 50% increase instead of 30% ?

    Take a Marksman parse without improved quick shot "bug". After looking at the damage breakdown you will see Electrified Munitions = 20% of total damage done. So here's an equation to total how "powerful" the 4piece set bonus is at 50%.

    Total parse damage 1850
    Electrified = 20% of total parse damage.
    Take 20% + 50% and you get a 10% dps gain from that 4 piece.

    Now lets compare.... Assassin's crystal. 30% more damage from Assassin's damage over time abilities. So since its 30% boost its less powerful?

    Total parse damage 1850
    % of damage from bleeds/dots 32%.
    So you take 32% + 30% = 9.66% dps gain from 4piece.

    so... in other words, marksman crystal is no more powerful then assassin's ( .34)

    which narrow's it down to 1 simple fact, IQS giving rogues an extra EM proc every 2 gcd's (mean 3 for every 2) threw it off causing it to scale better.

    In conclusion? both IQS and CRYSTAL gets nerfed to result in a total 6% damage increase boost after obtaining 4piece hammerknell gear. (15% currently, to 6% = 11% nerf = overkill)
    I think we're somewhat in agreement here. The only reason the MM crystal was out of line with the +50% was because of the way IQS was being used.

    The way I see it, Trion had 3 ways of fixing the problem.

    1. Nerf IQS
    2. Nerf the Crystal
    3. Nerf both

    Obviously they chose option 3, which imo is the least logical of the three. Double dipping nerfs is never really a good idea and tends to just lead to more imbalance. The better choice would have been 1 or 2. The best choice would have been option 2 as it lowers post 4pc MM without nerfing pre 4pc MM (who were never OP).
    And the answer to this ridiculous balance pendulum was always "just purge them!" - Rizaz

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    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    ailion let us know whats up with dis issue plz kthx

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

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    Rift Disciple Hargin's Avatar
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    <3 Locovato! Rarely a high end player has been so friendly to the community.

    Anyway, I guess that all the logical and reasonable persons (warriors/rogues/mages/clerics) agree that the nerf is overkill.
    And as other have suggested, they should just fix IQS and add a gear scaling mechanic on MM.
    Maybe then (and only then) adjust the crystal, but don't do both without anything to partially compensate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poochymama View Post
    I think we're somewhat in agreement here. The only reason the MM crystal was out of line with the +50% was because of the way IQS was being used.

    The way I see it, Trion had 3 ways of fixing the problem.

    1. Nerf IQS
    2. Nerf the Crystal
    3. Nerf both

    Obviously they chose option 3, which imo is the least logical of the three. Double dipping nerfs is never really a good idea and tends to just lead to more imbalance. The better choice would have been 1 or 2. The best choice would have been option 2 as it lowers post 4pc MM without nerfing pre 4pc MM (who were never OP).
    When has Trion fixed any problem by slowly adjusting?

    Their model is Useless -> FOTM -> Useless (repeating)

    Watch nightblade based builds.
    Last edited by wingedarr0w; 11-09-2011 at 02:30 AM.

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