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Thread: Let's Fix Bladedancer! [PvP]

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple Xahz's Avatar
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    Default Let's Fix Bladedancer! [PvP]

    So BD is one of my favorite souls in the game and pretty heavily contributed into why I rolled a Rogue in the first place. Its a fun soul and has a lot of things going for it. However, its pretty damn weak right now so I thought I'd outline a few problems I think BD has to hopefully start a discussion. Shall we?

    1. Physical Damage:

    Perhaps the biggest, most glaring problem BD has it that it does 100% physical damage - easily the worst form of damage in the game. On top of that, the BD tree itself offers absolutely no armor penetration whatsoever. Its the only rogue soul that doesn't either deal partially magic damage, or have partial armor penetration. Hell, MM even gets both of those. Armor is insanely strong in this game (40% damage reduction in leather, really?), and combine with damage reduction from Valor, abilities and talents, and avoidance, BD ends up putting out some really pathetic numbers.

    2. Defense based on Avoidance

    Avoidance is, at best, an unreliable defensive mechanic. BD is build around Dodge and Parry with talents like Strike Back and Turn the Tide, as well as Reprisal and Disengage only proccing on a successful avoid. Avoidance sucks for a lot of reasons, but the main ones are that you can't dodge spells. Which means when fighting say, a mage, a good portion of your abilities and talents are completely worthless. BD desperately needs a more consistent and reliable defensive system if Trion wants them to be able to take a hit

    3. Rhythmic Abilities

    I actually kind of like the cooldowns in the BD tree, I just don't think they're really up to par right now. BD is pretty unique amongst the Rogue souls in that the majority of its burst comes from builders as opposed to finishers (although NB is fairly similar in this regard as well with SoD). Appropriately, BD's offensive cooldowns focus around that. However, I can't help but feel that BD damage is on the low side in order to make up for the massive damage increase from Dualism or Blade Tempo. The cooldown/duration of Rhythmic abilities is such that you can only use one at a time, but you can always have on up if you manage them properly. I'd much rather like them consolidate some of the cooldowns and make them shorter tools for spike damage - instead of 21 seconds of godmode but you feel weak without them up.

    Anyways, these are just a few of the problems I think BD has among some other, minor ones. Overall I think it has the basis of a really solid, powerful tree. It just isn't quite there yet and needs a few tweaks and changes to really become competitive.

  2. #2
    Champion of Telara
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    The way to fix BD is the same as it was 4 patch versions ago:

    1. Heavily restrict or dis-incentivize hit rating in PvP.

    2. Remove the "IGNORE DODGE", "IGNORE PARRY", "IGNORE MISS" from the plethora of random abilities that have these effects tacked onto them. Limit them only to very specific abilities.

    Half the tree is based on countering attacks using avoidance mechanisms. This half of the tree is commonly "broken" from the simple fact that most of those mechanisms are bypassed from hit rating or cheese abilities that just say "**** you" to the spec.

    Edit: This includes all the spell-based pseudo attacks which function off of spec resists. These attacks should either be linked off an actual physical attack that can miss or be dodged/parried, or they should have their own dodge/parry chance and such.
    Last edited by EasymodeX; 11-08-2011 at 12:46 PM.

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    Ascendant Vyxagallanxchi's Avatar
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    The physical damage is definitely the elephant in the room of problems. Sadly, BD does not synergize with MM at all in terms of the armor penetration talents. Problem is making it synergize with melee damage would probably push Sin into the realm of OP where NB/RS sits right now. We don't need more OP classes.

    Avoidance for BD always makes me lol. BDs have less dodge / Parry then melee cleric builds do. And yet our talents are the ones that all require dodges / parrys. I don't get it...

    Rhythmic abilities really don't bother me so much. Compared to how they used to be, I think they're fine the way they are.

    In short, I think what we need is something that lets dodge / parry be more effective for us (% increase for points spent in BD tree with a lesser chance to dodge spells i.e. 20% dodge chance, 10% spell dodge chance). Obviously those numbers are merely to illustrate a point. But even more then that, I think we do need some form of armor penetration. Sadly, Infiltrator only gives 10% which is like... 1% more damage at most on a warrior for 5 points invested. Kinda failing cost-benefit analysis there. Actually... I just thought of a potential idea. Change the effect on Dauntless Strike from a crit % boost to a armor penetration effect, say, 10% per combo point used for 60 seconds. Might be something worth considering and with needing to refresh it, I don't think it would totally break PvE. Not sure how much armor pen does there but these changes shouldn't hurt the other side. I don't think Dauntless stacked with Bard buffs so this might work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Think of a 30 meter circle around all ranged dps rogues and mages. Ranged dps can stand in the back line and focus fire targets without worrying about mobility and most forms of cc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    Sounds like an excellent plan for your healers to follow as well, as they have an even longer range on their heals.

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple Xahz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxagallanxchi View Post
    The physical damage is definitely the elephant in the room of problems. Sadly, BD does not synergize with MM at all in terms of the armor penetration talents. Problem is making it synergize with melee damage would probably push Sin into the realm of OP where NB/RS sits right now. We don't need more OP classes.

    Avoidance for BD always makes me lol. BDs have less dodge / Parry then melee cleric builds do. And yet our talents are the ones that all require dodges / parrys. I don't get it...

    Rhythmic abilities really don't bother me so much. Compared to how they used to be, I think they're fine the way they are.

    In short, I think what we need is something that lets dodge / parry be more effective for us (% increase for points spent in BD tree with a lesser chance to dodge spells i.e. 20% dodge chance, 10% spell dodge chance). Obviously those numbers are merely to illustrate a point. But even more then that, I think we do need some form of armor penetration. Sadly, Infiltrator only gives 10% which is like... 1% more damage at most on a warrior for 5 points invested. Kinda failing cost-benefit analysis there. Actually... I just thought of a potential idea. Change the effect on Dauntless Strike from a crit % boost to a armor penetration effect, say, 10% per combo point used for 60 seconds. Might be something worth considering and with needing to refresh it, I don't think it would totally break PvE. Not sure how much armor pen does there but these changes shouldn't hurt the other side. I don't think Dauntless stacked with Bard buffs so this might work.
    Dauntless and False Blade should be consolidated the same way the RS finishers are for 1.6, but yea I agree with everything you said.

    The problem I have with rhythmic abilities is that the class is based with the assumption that you always have them up, because you should. This means BD's base damage has to stay relatively low so the CDs can increase it. If BD's damage was buffed through armor pen or weapon enchants or something, constantly having Blade Tempo or Dualism or whatever up would push them over the top. I'm okay with them now, and I think its a lot of fun to pop Blade and Soul Parity and go ape**** for a little while, I'm just concerned with the balancing.

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    Ascendant bitnine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
    Half the tree is based on countering attacks using avoidance mechanisms. This half of the tree is commonly "broken" from the simple fact that most of those mechanisms are bypassed from hit rating or cheese abilities that just say "**** you" to the spec.
    Really, in a PvP type of environ, it would almost be better to have Side Steps grant deflection. Of course, that wouldn't help the BD defenses being inapplicable to spells, but I think you're totally screwed on that one.

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    Rift Disciple Xahz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitnine View Post
    Really, in a PvP type of environ, it would almost be better to have Side Steps grant deflection. Of course, that wouldn't help the BD defenses being inapplicable to spells, but I think you're totally screwed on that one.
    I'm actually okay with mages being a hard target for BD considering pretty much every rogue spec brutalizes mages outside of chloro/dom. Its just the fact that half our talents are useless when we don't dodge that pisses me off. I intentionally aggro mobs when I play BD in world PvP just to proc my dodge abilities. That really shouldn't be necessary

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    On the other hand, when you hump a random rogue as a BD spec, you can 100->0 them in 3.5 seconds. So it comes with the territory.

    The problem, IMO, is the pervasive "**** your dodge and parry" itemization, mechanics, and abilities across the board for all specs.

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    I think BD is fine as far as it's abilities and so forth are concerned. The problem with BD (and Warriors) is that physical damage gets mitigated twice (Armor and Valor) where non-physical damage gets mitigated once (Valor). Either Valor needs to affect physical damage different or PvP gear needs resist stats on them. I'm more for the latter one.
    Even free cost too much now

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    Rift Disciple Xahz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Credo View Post
    I think BD is fine as far as it's abilities and so forth are concerned. The problem with BD (and Warriors) is that physical damage gets mitigated twice (Armor and Valor) where non-physical damage gets mitigated once (Valor). Either Valor needs to affect physical damage different or PvP gear needs resist stats on them. I'm more for the latter one.
    I just think both armor and valor mitigate way too much damage. Damage needs to be toned down across the board and defensive stats need to be reduced in effectiveness. I mean for ****s sake Clerics are running around with 50% physical mitigation from armor, 48% damage mitigation from valor, and 40% avoidance. And that's BEFORE abilities, procs, cooldowns and whatnot. Its ridiculous. Not saying Clerics are OP, but those numbers only get higher with gear and it gets increasingly frustrating with each tier
    Last edited by Xahz; 11-08-2011 at 02:22 PM.

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    Ascendant Adnoz's Avatar
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    +hit working in pvp has always been BD's biggest problem.
    Fact is, at this point, I can get so much +hit from 3 item slots that no rogue will ever dodge me without using a side steps and improved false blade.

    (Gear)

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple Xahz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adnoz View Post
    +hit working in pvp has always been BD's biggest problem.
    Fact is, at this point, I can get so much +hit from 3 item slots that no rogue will ever dodge me without using a side steps and improved false blade.
    Didn't even think of that. If I could edit I would throw it up there. Not really sure why Hit in this game negates an enemy's dodge/parry chance as opposed to just reducing your base chance to miss.

    I've been messing around with BD this week and yelling random, incoherent garbage in WFs. Its not *terrible*, but mages slaughter me so hard its not even funny. Well, its probably funny for them. Warriors and Rogues are a mixed bag, depending on their spec and what abilities you dodge. Clerics, as usual, are unkillable. Its a fun tree though, and I think I'll stick with it for a while and try a few more configurations.

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