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Thread: Saboteur change proposition

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    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    Default Saboteur change proposition

    I think most people can agree Saboteur is in a bad spot for PvP right now. With the ideas I have and the ideas other people could throw out here, I think we can bring Sab back in line with other souls.

    First, traps are totally useless. Change the talent "The Trapper" to this: Causes all traps to increase the damage the target takes from the next detonate by 100%. Also increases cast time of traps to five seconds (to prevent spamming)

    Second, we don't get enough burst for our time. Add a 32 point talent: You can now have 8 charges on your target. charges have a 50% chance to add an additional charge when used.

    Third, there are alot of useless talents. Silent Setup for example. Maybe change it to something like "Your charges are no longer cleansable".

    Fourth, we have a ton of useless charges.Concussion Charge and Caltrop Charge are not useful due to the DR system. Embers Charge does nothing for the Saboteur, because it increases NON-PHYSICAL damage on the target by 1% per charge. How about "Increases damage against the target by the saboteur by 15% for 3 seconds. Time increased with mroe combo points 3, 6 9 12 15. Caltrop Charge: "Increases cast time of the enemy by 5% for each charge used against the target. Time increased with more combo points. 3 6 9 12 15.

    Finally, revamp and return our old 44 point ability to 51 points, and make it do soemthing like "The next killing blow against the rogue detonates a bomb dealing weapon plus 400 damage to all enemies within 5 meters. Lasts 5 minutes, 5 minute cooldown."

    Even the lore ont he Saboteur page in the class section says "With proper setup, a lone Saboteur can take down even the most powerful foes". Right now we can't even take down a mage.

    Anyone have anything to add to this?
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    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Fix charge booster make it how it was supposed to be. Done. I just fixed sab!!!

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    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    Fix charge booster make it how it was supposed to be. Done. I just fixed sab!!!
    While that'd be incredible, it doesn't fix some of the core problems with lack of synergy withint the soul.
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    Koe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    While that'd be incredible, it doesn't fix some of the core problems with lack of synergy withint the soul.
    Why does saboteur have to synergize with other souls?


    Also, you should've named the topic, "Sabo PvP Change Proposition."
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    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    Why does saboteur have to synergize with other souls?


    Also, you should've named the topic, "Sabo PvP Change Proposition."
    I said lack of synergy WITHIN the soul. all these +damage on charges and bombs aren't doing much. Trion could raise the base damage and give us some real abilities instead of those. Right now there is little incentive to use traps, and we only have three useful charges for PvP and PvE.

    And yes, I realize this now. lol But the changes could still work for PvE.
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    Rift Master McWaffles's Avatar
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    First, these are completely pvp changes, you have to look at both pve and pvp when making suggestions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    I think most people can agree Saboteur is in a bad spot for PvP right now. With the ideas I have and the ideas other people could throw out here, I think we can bring Sab back in line with other souls.

    First, traps are totally useless. Change the talent "The Trapper" to this: Causes all traps to increase the damage the target takes from the next detonate by 100%. Also increases cast time of traps to five seconds (to prevent spamming)
    Or you can make traps more useful by giving them a large modifier to damage from AP plus a base damage increase and giving them a 2sec cast. Then make the talent "The Trapper" instead a 46 point root ability that also makes your traps no longer break stealth and increases their AP to damage contribution by 20% per point spent past 46. Why should setting a trap break stealth? In the old talent's place add a new talent that causes detonate to do 10% more damage for each type of charge on the target.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    Second, we don't get enough burst for our time. Add a 32 point talent: You can now have 8 charges on your target. charges have a 50% chance to add an additional charge when used.
    This would quite honestly make saboteur super OP in PvE for dps. And you must mean root ability, because you cant just add talents to a tree because you cant go over 51 points per soul. Saboteur detonate is actually quite good dps. watching someones hp drop for 6k to nothing is good burst imo, but you get the chance to do that about once every 6 times you target someone, and only if rapid setup is up.
    Why ask for better burst for your time when you could ask for more consistant damage between/after bursts? instead I'd prefer to see a toggle mode with that causes all the saboteurs charges to instantly detonate themselves, but that the charges deal 15% less damage if detonated this way. The advantage to this is pretty obvious without giving sab's game breaking damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    Third, there are alot of useless talents. Silent Setup for example. Maybe change it to something like "Your charges are no longer cleansable".
    Silent Setup is not useless. Just because it isnt useful in pvp doesnt make it useless. Sab is not a soul purely for pvp, and silent setup is what makes it so good for open world solo'ing elites, as well as giving 5 charges to start raid boss encounters for an early incriminate. Also, the charges being cleansable was the offset we got back in beta for being able to tear someone apart, prior to charge booster nerf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    Fourth, we have a ton of useless charges.Concussion Charge and Caltrop Charge are not useful due to the DR system. Embers Charge does nothing for the Saboteur, because it increases NON-PHYSICAL damage on the target by 1% per charge. How about "Increases damage against the target by the saboteur by 15% for 3 seconds. Time increased with mroe combo points 3, 6 9 12 15. Caltrop Charge: "Increases cast time of the enemy by 5% for each charge used against the target. Time increased with more combo points. 3 6 9 12 15.
    agreed on Caltrop and Embers charge being near useless, but Concussion charge does have uses, although more in pve. Embers charge should be changed to increase the damage taken from saboteur charges by 5% per charge for 15 seconds, meaning one sab could stack it for all sabs in pve, should guilds still use sabdancer, as well as for fights like Estrode. If they wanted to fix concussion charge for pvp, add to it that if the target is immune to stuns, then concussion charge attempts to interrupt the target, with a 33% chance per charge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    Finally, revamp and return our old 44 point ability to 51 points, and make it do soemthing like "The next killing blow against the rogue detonates a bomb dealing weapon plus 400 damage to all enemies within 5 meters. Lasts 5 minutes, 5 minute cooldown."

    Even the lore ont he Saboteur page in the class section says "With proper setup, a lone Saboteur can take down even the most powerful foes". Right now we can't even take down a mage.

    Anyone have anything to add to this?
    I'd recommend adding a root ability at 36 points that causes the saboteur's detonate to increase the damage of the next Fragmentation Bomb by 25% plus 5% per point spent in the Saboteur soul past 36.
    This would actually give good use to frag bomb.
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    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McWaffles View Post
    First, these are completely pvp changes, you have to look at both pve and pvp when making suggestions.




    Or you can make traps more useful by giving them a large modifier to damage from AP plus a base damage increase and giving them a 2sec cast. Then make the talent "The Trapper" instead a 46 point root ability that also makes your traps no longer break stealth and increases their AP to damage contribution by 20% per point spent past 46. Why should setting a trap break stealth? In the old talent's place add a new talent that causes detonate to do 10% more damage for each type of charge on the target.



    This would quite honestly make saboteur super OP in PvE for dps. And you must mean root ability, because you cant just add talents to a tree because you cant go over 51 points per soul. Saboteur detonate is actually quite good dps. watching someones hp drop for 6k to nothing is good burst imo, but you get the chance to do that about once every 6 times you target someone, and only if rapid setup is up.
    Why ask for better burst for your time when you could ask for more consistant damage between/after bursts? instead I'd prefer to see a toggle mode with that causes all the saboteurs charges to instantly detonate themselves, but that the charges deal 15% less damage if detonated this way. The advantage to this is pretty obvious without giving sab's game breaking damage.



    Silent Setup is not useless. Just because it isnt useful in pvp doesnt make it useless. Sab is not a soul purely for pvp, and silent setup is what makes it so good for open world solo'ing elites, as well as giving 5 charges to start raid boss encounters for an early incriminate. Also, the charges being cleansable was the offset we got back in beta for being able to tear someone apart, prior to charge booster nerf.



    agreed on Caltrop and Embers charge being near useless, but Concussion charge does have uses, although more in pve. Embers charge should be changed to increase the damage taken from saboteur charges by 5% per charge for 15 seconds, meaning one sab could stack it for all sabs in pve, should guilds still use sabdancer, as well as for fights like Estrode. If they wanted to fix concussion charge for pvp, add to it that if the target is immune to stuns, then concussion charge attempts to interrupt the target, with a 33% chance per charge.



    I'd recommend adding a root ability at 36 points that causes the saboteur's detonate to increase the damage of the next Fragmentation Bomb by 25% plus 5% per point spent in the Saboteur soul past 36.
    This would actually give good use to frag bomb.
    Thanks for all the feedback. My ideas seem totally stupid now. lol I do agree that Concussion Charge is useful. It's very helpful in PvE and PvP alike.
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    Rift Disciple Xahz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    Why does saboteur have to synergize with other souls?
    Because that's the entire point of Rift's class system?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xahz View Post
    Because that's the entire point of Rift's class system?
    15% dex for 5 points seems like it synergizes perfectly fine.

    Also ranged CP builder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    15% dex for 5 points seems like it synergizes perfectly fine.

    Also ranged CP builder.
    Oh yea that's why there's all those x/x/5 Sab PvP builds out there. Are you ****ing serious?

    Saboteur has probably the least synergy out of every soul on every calling in the game. It has a completely isolated class mechanic that has no relevance to the other trees whatsoever. If you're not using Charges+Detonate, 90% of the talents in Sab are completely and utterly useless. That's not synergy.
    Last edited by Xahz; 11-06-2011 at 06:57 PM.

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    I gave up on Trion ever fixing this soul for PvP. The thread in my sig was very active in the PTS forum and actually very civil and we got nowhere with it. I agree with Zyzyx though. Old Charge Booster would be a massive help. First and foremost, a soul needs synergy within itself. Worry about intersoul synergy after that. But if you really want intersoul synergy... make embers charge deal FIRE DAMAGE! Embers. Ember... ember = fire? Yes. Why the hell is it earth damage? That makes zero sense. None. Nada. Make it fire and presto, it synergizes with Nightblade talents making it a more useful ability.
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    Sab is clearly intended to be a primary soul, for the most part, but I see a lot of people playing with it as their 3rd soul with other souls just because adhesive bomb is awesome for, say, marksmen. I do agree that there's not much in it past those first five points that offers any benefit at all to other souls. On the other hand, they gave us the poison-damage-buff effect back in beta, and that does provide some noticable benefit. I still love my sab/sin soloing build.

    Original charge booster was fun, but it was also ludicrously OP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xahz View Post
    Oh yea that's why there's all those x/x/5 Sab PvP builds out there. Are you ****ing serious?

    Saboteur has probably the least synergy out of every soul on every calling in the game. It has a completely isolated class mechanic that has no relevance to the other trees whatsoever. If you're not using Charges+Detonate, 90% of the talents in Sab are completely and utterly useless. That's not synergy.
    Yup - just look at how there are 0 dps builds that take sab now that are competitive.
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    Ive played around a bit with a Riftstalker / Bladedancer / Saboteur build, basically a Blinking Sabodancer which worked reasonably well, but it's lacking in the damage department, has no healing debuff and is very susceptable (spelling) to dispels..

    A small change I'd like to see is simply having ranged autoattack being enabled when you spec into Saboteur.

    Also, greatly increase trap damage/scaling and utility, possibly give the Sabo soul some sort of slow stealth in which you can setup your traps and charges and a cool opener, or bonus to the first detonate made out of stealth or so.

    My idea of a Saboteur is someone who sneaks around somewhere, place some traps and landmines, maybe attach some sort of explosive to objectives in pvp like the Fang in Black Garden of the Sourcestones in Whitefall Steppes and so on. This opens up great strategic play and has it's own weaknesses, as when the Saboteur is caught when he hasn't prepared the terrain, he's at a disadvantage. He shoots with a gun, he throws charges onto you (remove scaling with sin poison talents and increase AP bonus through some 26+ Sabo point system fx) maybe has some cool trickshot abilities and a massive suicide bomb perhaps?
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    Rift Disciple Xahz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendu View Post
    Ive played around a bit with a Riftstalker / Bladedancer / Saboteur build, basically a Blinking Sabodancer which worked reasonably well, but it's lacking in the damage department, has no healing debuff and is very susceptable (spelling) to dispels..

    A small change I'd like to see is simply having ranged autoattack being enabled when you spec into Saboteur.

    Also, greatly increase trap damage/scaling and utility, possibly give the Sabo soul some sort of slow stealth in which you can setup your traps and charges and a cool opener, or bonus to the first detonate made out of stealth or so.

    My idea of a Saboteur is someone who sneaks around somewhere, place some traps and landmines, maybe attach some sort of explosive to objectives in pvp like the Fang in Black Garden of the Sourcestones in Whitefall Steppes and so on. This opens up great strategic play and has it's own weaknesses, as when the Saboteur is caught when he hasn't prepared the terrain, he's at a disadvantage. He shoots with a gun, he throws charges onto you (remove scaling with sin poison talents and increase AP bonus through some 26+ Sabo point system fx) maybe has some cool trickshot abilities and a massive suicide bomb perhaps?
    Yea its really awkward that Sab doesn't use a "weapon" the same way Bard doesn't. The problem with Sab is that its either going to be overpowered or underpowered due to the bursty nature of the spec. If your burst can't kill anyone reliably, the soul is garbage (as it currently is now). If it can kill everyone reliably, its overpowered (as it was on release).

    Sab really just needs a total redesign. I honestly think it would work better as an offensive support soul with utility Bombs, Traps, and Charges than it would as a damage soul. I mean, Adhesive and Suffocating Bombs are actually really great, especially when used in conjunction with each other. Annihilation Bomb is an AoE stun on a reasonable cooldown, and Land Mines can actually be pretty annoying if you throw them down as much as possible. Most of the other traps are useless, but hey, its a start.
    Last edited by Xahz; 11-07-2011 at 10:42 AM.

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