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Thread: The issues of rogue melee dps

  1. #1
    RIFT Guide Writer
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    Default The issues of rogue melee dps

    First of all this post is only about pve and the purpose is to look at the problems our current melee options have and how they could be fixed.

    To have a good melee build there are a few requirements other than just pure dps. To be practical it has to have at least most of these covered.
    1. Gap closer and some ranged component to dps for the phases when being in melee is not an option or alternatively strong ranged abilities if there is no gap closer.
    2. Interrupt; there are just too many fights that require interrupting for a standard melee build to not have it
    3. DPS that is not too tied to positions or special requirements
    4. AOE damage and cleave damage.
    5. Ability to quickly change targets.

    Mobility and range
    Only gap closers currently are from bladedancer and riftstalker. Bladedancer gap closer is a 10 point root ability, however the first 10 points in BD offer absolutely nothing else of value to NB or Sin builds so they can't take it. Riftstalker has more synergy but also requires to go further into the tree. However RS gap closers are often ruined by them teleporting you behind the target instead of towards it. This leads to lack of control and them being often impossible to use.

    BD has no ranged abilities and has to rely on very weak fillers from usually marksman. Sin has no ranged abilities and also has to rely on marksman. NB does have good abilities that can be used from range but they have cooldowns. NB is still clearly the best off in the ranged phases.

    No rogue build also has access to way of the mountain type of ability that would let us ignore a lot of the abilities that actually make gap closers and ranged abilities important.

    Interrupt
    The interrupts that are available to rogues are weapon barrage at 12 point bladedancer root ability and planar disruption at riftstalker 22 point ability. Again bladedancer has no synergy so that one is not available to NB and assassin. Riftstalker interrupt is very high on the tree and requires spending 2 extra points to RS past what is otherwise useful for blink builds.

    Special requirements for DPS
    This is mostly an issue with assassin. Backstab is positional, a lot of the tree is build around stealth which is not that useful in pve except a dps boost with slip away every 2 minutes, double cross only gives damage bonus if you are behind the target. Most of the time it's possible to do that but not always.

    AOE and cleave
    I separate these two with aoe meaning just pure aoe dps across multiple targets. Cleave means additiona dps on adds while keeping up close to full single target dps on the main target. Rogues have the worst aoe in game currently. Saboteur was what we had for aoe and cleave but now that is nerfed. NB and bladedancer have some melee range aoe but it's not particularly strong, even fan out spam beats it. NB is capable of some cleave damage due to the 1.5 patch versions of fiery chains and weapon flare. Bladedancer takes a huge hit in single target damage when cleaving. Assassin has no aoe/cleave at all.

    Target Switching
    The basic rogue mechanics already make this difficult, but the souls themselves provide some extra still. Assassin is very dot heavy and not at all suited for quick target switches. NB dps is very dependant on fiery spike and quick target switches end up with very poor dps. BD has no dots and deadly dance stays on the rogue itself. However if the targets die quickly then BD has major trouble doing rotations with finishers and loses half of its damage. As a whole all the melee souls are extremely dependant on full rotations with the finishers being such key abilities either because huge part of the dps in them instead of the combo point builder abilities.

    So what we can see is this:
    Assassin is a pure single target build that has to be in a gimmick blink build to have any gap closers or interrupt. The assassin builds that parse high can only really be used on a few bosses in HK.

    NB builds that parse high have no gap closers or interrupt. Decent cleave and ranged phase dps but poor aoe.

    Bladedancer has a gap closer and an interrupt. No ranged dps other than possibly from 2nd or 3rd soul, poor cleave and poor aoe.

    To actually make melee rogues practical there needs to be some changes. Here's a few ideas:

    Nightblade
    No one likes dusk to dawn as an ability that forces you to stand still and costs almost all your energy. Change it to an instant cast dot, kind of like single target version of living flame.
    Increase the damage of primal strike and weapon flare and make primal death also affect weapon flare.
    Make improved blazing strike also affect scourge of darkness and flame thrust.

    Assassin
    Change double cross to give the damage bonus against targets that are not targeting you instead of the positional requirement.
    Make improved savage Strike 10% crit per level to savage strike and advanced flanking 5% crit per level to backstab.
    Give assassins the standard melee interrupt as 12 point root ability.
    Give assassins some kind of aoe attack.

    Bladedancer
    Since bladedancer is the main source of gap closer then it needs its synergy improved so it can be taken as the 3rd soul.
    Change blade finesse to work for all finishers instead of just deadly strike.
    Switch the places of combat expertise and ambidextrous.
    Increase the damage of keen strike and twin strike.
    Make twin strike work as an alternative prequisite for quick strike and precision strike same as keen strike.
    Make blade and fury also affect twin strike.
    Make compound attack also trigger deadly dance.
    Reduce the cooldown of sprint to 1 minute and the duration to 8 seconds (45 seconds and 14 seconds with abilities)
    Reduce cooldown on dancing steel to 1 minute.

    Riftstalker
    Remove the teleport behind feature from blinks.
    Move planar disruption lower in the tree.


    If you think this is too much to ask then compare it to the top warrior melee dps build.
    Gap closer: yes with 15 second cooldown
    Interrupt: yes
    DPS that is not too tied to positions or special requirements: no positional requirements
    AOE damage and cleave damage: very good aoe and cleave
    Ability to quickly change targets: attack points stay on warrior so no penalty at all for switching targets

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer Gyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    Riftstalker
    Remove the teleport behind feature from blinks.
    The only thing you said that i care about at all. Everything else is just fine IMO, you can't ALWAYS have an interrupt, you can't ALWAYS have a gap closer, and you can't ALWAYS have a ranged DPS ability. Fix blinks, and all of a sudden you have access to everything you need.

    Want AoE and ST with infinite gap closers? Go Blink-Blade. Want less AoE, slightly more ST, and little bit of range, and to not have to stand behind things? Go Nightblade. Want to do absolutely max ST DPS but no AoE and be somewhat reliant on positioning as a trade off? Run Blood Stalker.

    The worst thing you could do IMO is homogenize the rogue souls. I like the fact that they are all different, yet in some way viable.

    Just fix the damn blinks please
    Hastati (50 warrior), Tsar (50 cleric), Tsaritsa (50 Mage)
    Guides: 51 Bladedancer, Bloodstalker, Nightblade
    DPS Rogue <Trinity>
    5/8 ID; HK Conqueror

  3. #3
    Plane Walker
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    I swear, even when things are going their way rogues find things to ***** about.

  4. #4
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kharis View Post
    I swear, even when things are going their way rogues find things to ***** about.
    I like this post because it shows how good warriors have had it, and how intent they are on keeping it that way.

    Do you know my guild MT is a warrior? Do you know that he made a rogue? Guess what his 1st complaint was... "Rogues are ****. They don't do enough damage and die too quickly."
    Last edited by Kayos; 10-31-2011 at 11:31 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyle View Post
    The only thing you said that i care about at all. Everything else is just fine IMO, you can't ALWAYS have an interrupt, you can't ALWAYS have a gap closer, and you can't ALWAYS have a ranged DPS ability. Fix blinks, and all of a sudden you have access to everything you need.

    Want AoE and ST with infinite gap closers? Go Blink-Blade. Want less AoE, slightly more ST, and little bit of range, and to not have to stand behind things? Go Nightblade. Want to do absolutely max ST DPS but no AoE and be somewhat reliant on positioning as a trade off? Run Blood Stalker.

    The worst thing you could do IMO is homogenize the rogue souls. I like the fact that they are all different, yet in some way viable.

    Just fix the damn blinks please
    You can always have those things, as long as you are a warrior. I just want options for melee builds that have access to basic tools such as interrupt and gap closer. And I want at least one build that can do competitive aoe.

    Go blinkblade for aoe? Seriously? Even fan out spam is better aoe.

    The worst thing you could do IMO is ask for nerfs to our only viable raid build so that it is no longer competitive on single target. The silver tip nerf took care of it doing good aoe earlier already. After 1.6 rogues will be third in single target dps and last in aoe and we are supposed to be mainly a dps calling.

  6. #6
    RIFT Guide Writer Gyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    Go blinkblade for aoe? Seriously? Even fan out spam is better aoe.
    Nope, if you are not out DPSing Fan Out in Blink Blade you are doing something wrong. Of course it doesn't compare to the Rng/MM AoE build, but we were talking melee only.
    Hastati (50 warrior), Tsar (50 cleric), Tsaritsa (50 Mage)
    Guides: 51 Bladedancer, Bloodstalker, Nightblade
    DPS Rogue <Trinity>
    5/8 ID; HK Conqueror

  7. #7
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    BD has no ranged abilities and has to rely on very weak fillers from usually marksman.
    Sin has no ranged abilities and also has to rely on marksman.
    NB does have good abilities that can be used from range but they have cooldowns.
    I hate it when my melee specs can't do the same dps from range. And my secondary souls have to provide support to the first one, it's ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    Rogues have the worst aoe in game currently. Saboteur was what we had for aoe and cleave but now that is nerfed. NB and bladedancer have some melee range aoe but it's not particularly strong, even fan out spam beats it.
    You should start your own MMO, sounds like you have good...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    Make compound attack also trigger deadly dance.
    Oh. Nevermind.

  8. #8
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    ROFL so hard.......

    Ok ya decent points but dude I don't think you know what your talking about....... I am the top DPS in my guild and the most undergeared of the top 5 DPS in our guild...... I will give you the breakdown of what roles I use in HK and i dont even have enough roles to make all the speccs I use and guess what there 80% melee speccs

    Murdantix = Blinkblade 2.5kDPS ST with full t3 MH is midnight ripper tank weapon and OH is weeping edge
    Zilas = sabodancer (guess what old school sabodancer pulls equal if not higher to MM in AE) normally 3.5kAE
    im 1 of 2 rogues who stays on the boss and AEs everything
    Vlad = a joke but i run Blinkblade and sometimes run NB or BD to test on
    Grug = BD bcuz dots are worthless in that fight my dps equals MM
    Matron = I normally tank but if not i run sabodancer
    Sicaron = blinkblade 3.2k easy matching warrior DPS no problem and MM hang up with us tho none have 4piece HK so thats a huge boost on this fight
    King = so much easier with Range so i actually run MM on this fight to switch between targets
    Estrode = 51M/10NB/5sabo to SPAM eradicate and run good deeps need none slow **** healers for this specc if there are back to back crossfires
    Inquistor = Blinkblade if im not tanking
    Darktide = Blinkblade if not tanking
    Akyilos = havent pulled it yet but im mostly likely going to be tanking bcuz of the toughness required but i would run blinkblade IMO

    so in short Blinkblade is GREAT if you know how to use it keep up rotation/buffs and always always repositioning yourself

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shifterz View Post
    ROFL so hard.......

    so in short Blinkblade is GREAT if you know how to use it keep up rotation/buffs and always always repositioning yourself
    Running Blink in HK, was starting to get worried about having trouble in the later boss fights, up to Gurg now.

    My point is, the rotation for blink blade is actually fun and its producing some nice parses.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shifterz View Post
    ROFL so hard.......

    Ok ya decent points but dude I don't think you know what your talking about....... I am the top DPS in my guild and the most undergeared of the top 5 DPS in our guild...... I will give you the breakdown of what roles I use in HK and i dont even have enough roles to make all the speccs I use and guess what there 80% melee speccs

    Murdantix = Blinkblade 2.5kDPS ST with full t3 MH is midnight ripper tank weapon and OH is weeping edge
    Zilas = sabodancer (guess what old school sabodancer pulls equal if not higher to MM in AE) normally 3.5kAE
    im 1 of 2 rogues who stays on the boss and AEs everything
    Vlad = a joke but i run Blinkblade and sometimes run NB or BD to test on
    Grug = BD bcuz dots are worthless in that fight my dps equals MM
    Matron = I normally tank but if not i run sabodancer
    Sicaron = blinkblade 3.2k easy matching warrior DPS no problem and MM hang up with us tho none have 4piece HK so thats a huge boost on this fight
    King = so much easier with Range so i actually run MM on this fight to switch between targets
    Estrode = 51M/10NB/5sabo to SPAM eradicate and run good deeps need none slow **** healers for this specc if there are back to back crossfires
    Inquistor = Blinkblade if im not tanking
    Darktide = Blinkblade if not tanking
    Akyilos = havent pulled it yet but im mostly likely going to be tanking bcuz of the toughness required but i would run blinkblade IMO

    so in short Blinkblade is GREAT if you know how to use it keep up rotation/buffs and always always repositioning yourself
    Sorry, but your incorrect.

    If your min/maxing with a 4p, and the same tier weapons. MM outparses it easily by a couple hundred dps. I have both the Relic Gun and Relic Sword.

    I have both the NB crystal and the MM crystal.

    Honestly, your warriors should be outparsing your numbers, IMO.

    Your numbers are not bad by any means, especially not having the 4p, but imo your warriors should be pulling higher numbers then these, unless they dont have HK 2 handers.

    Oh, and have fun with blinkblade on akylios past p1 :P
    Last edited by Kokie; 11-01-2011 at 08:53 AM.

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