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Thread: If Rogues are the Jack of All Trades - Make Bard a Healer

  1. #1
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Default If Rogues are the Jack of All Trades - Make Bard a Healer

    OK, so reflecting on the MM nerf and where they put all melee dps rogue builds, it looks like rogues are - by design - lower then warriors as melee and ranged dps. It also looks like with the mage buffs, our ranged builds are lower then mages for ranged dps.

    Where does that leave us?

    Melee dps rogues - 2nd behind warriors
    Ranged dps - 2nd behind mages
    Support - arguably, not as effective as archon
    Tank - 1 soul, arguably inferrior to warriors (though haven't seen how 1.6 will pan out).

    So what does that mean? I take it to mean we're meant to be the jack of all trades class. OK.. so if that's the case, please make bard a healer.

    Right now bards are not effective in 5 mans, it's debatable if they're effective in 10 mans (I'm used to not using one) and necessary in 20 man raids. So to me that means they're balanced around 20 man content, and pretty useless outside of 20 man raids.

    Is this right? Not to me, bards should be effective outside of 20 man raids. If mages are going to be the top rdps class (which they should be imo) and can heal, why not rogues? Jack of all trades and inferrior to another class in each area should mean we have access to all 4 major roles.

    Yes it will mean that bards will be a bit OP in raids considering they raid buff 20 people, but... who cares? You'll still only use 1 per raid, and I seriously doubt that people will complain about more effective buffs. You can stack as many healers as needed, as long as the standard is still one bard per 20 man raid then it's not an issue.

    What it will do though is make bards effective in 5 mans and 10 man raids. Having a soul only be effective in one small aspect of the game for pve isn't right.

    My suggestions... on top of what's already been provided with pages of bard feedback:
    - cadence usable on the move
    - single target heal
    - cleanse
    - combat rez
    - aoe healing and single target healing at about 80% of cleric/chloro healing
    - 1 minute motif times min
    Last edited by Mayi; 10-31-2011 at 08:24 PM.

  2. #2
    Plane Walker Vera's Avatar
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    Your post advocates a

    ( ) DPS (X) Healing ( ) Combination DPS / Healing ( ) Mechanical

    approach to patching Bard.

    Your idea will not work.

    Here is why it won't work. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have other flaws which used to vary from patch to patch)

    (x) Raids were balanced around Bards as they currently are
    ( ) Bards are not a DPS soul. DPS is not an inherent feature of support
    (x) Bards are not a healing soul. See above.
    ( ) Your suggestion would require the addition of too many abilities
    ( ) Your suggestion would remove one of the genuinely useful abilities
    (x) Your suggestion would make Bard overpowered
    (x) Trion are not going to change the core rogue mechanics to suit one soul
    (x) Trion will not put up with it

    Specifically, your plan fails to account for

    (x) Clerics complaining that Bards can out-heal them
    (x) Chloromancers complaining that Bards can out-heal them
    (x) Archons complaining that Bards can both out-heal AND out-DPS them
    (x) Warriors complaining about everything, at the slightest provocation
    ( ) Issues regarding balancing loot tables
    ( ) The inherent problems of adding mandatory items at this late stage
    (x) Trion being unwilling to make radical changes to a soul
    (x) Other people finding abilities useful, even if you do not yourself
    (x) The requirement to balance the soul for both PvE and PvP use
    (x) People who are generally happy with the soul’s functioning
    ( ) Bard scaling having a deleterious effect on lowbies
    ( ) The scaling that already exists for the Bard soul
    ( ) This is only a video game
    ( ) Motif of Regeneration stealing aggro on pulls

    and the following philosophical objections may also apply:

    ( ) Feeling insignificant as a raid member is a not a balance issue
    (x) You are never required to go Bard. Don’t like it? Find a new guild.
    ( ) Increasing Bard DPS will not make the role any more enjoyable to play
    (x) Increasing Bard HPS will not make the role any more enjoyable to play
    ( ) Motif of Encouragement is a bonus, not a replacement for something useful
    ( ) Your suggestions would be completely out-of-character for a Bard
    ( ) Spamming Cadence and CoR is not that different to any other souls’ rotations
    ( ) If Bards are so worthless, why are they always part of a raid?
    ( ) Killing them that way is not slow and painful enough
    Last edited by Alyn; 11-02-2011 at 12:08 PM. Reason: removed inflammatory comment/language

  3. #3
    Sword of Telara Calibrex's Avatar
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    I thought clerics were jack of all trades.

    MT/OT
    MT heals
    Raid heals/support
    Range dps
    Melee dps


    Also, an -icar (inq or cab) cannot be out-healed or out-dps'ed by a bard tbh.
    Where's the Auction House to buy more DPS for my cleric?

  4. #4
    Plane Walker Vera's Avatar
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    It has been my main spec for about the last three months. I have completed every raid boss, except Akylios, as Bard. Only recently I have started tanking in raids as well, but traditionally, I have always been a Bard.
    Last edited by Alyn; 11-02-2011 at 11:53 AM. Reason: removed reference to deleted post

  5. #5
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vera View Post
    It has been my main spec for about the last three months. I have completed every raid boss, except Akylios, as Bard. Only recently I have started tanking in raids as well, but traditionally, I have always been a Bard.
    OK, when was the last time you played bard in a 5 man? What about 10 man raid?

    Class is balanced around raiding. Sure as a raider you can say everything's fine if you're happy, but nonetheless bard has become a soul that's barely used.

    Instead of balancing bard around 20 man raids being 'Fine', balance it around being 'fine' in 5 mans and OP in 20 mans. You can only have bard per raid, any way you look at it if it gets stronger in 20 mans... who cares? It won't break the game, but at least we'll truely be adaptable and get something for us being 2nd best in all other areas.

  6. #6
    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    the term jack of all trades means, decent and everything, not good or great at anything... no thx!
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
    Marksman, Ranger, Nightblade, Blink'Blade, Asstalker, Assdancer, and finally The Hoko Spec™
    Hoko, teaching noobs the way of rogue pve until 12/20/11.

  7. #7
    Ascendant
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    I have been in 5 man dungeons where the healer went down and the bard healed the boss fight.

  8. #8
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokonoso View Post
    the term jack of all trades means, decent and everything, not good or great at anything... no thx!
    Step back, look at where all rogue builds are dps wise. Where they've been carefully tweaked to stand.

    It's already done, it's just people want to have a top dps spec so aren't seeing the obvious.
    Last edited by Mayi; 11-01-2011 at 05:11 AM.

  9. #9
    Plane Walker Vera's Avatar
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    OK, when was the last time you played bard in a 5 man? What about 10 man raid?
    Largely irrelevant, since Bard hasn't been changed in a long time. 1.6 will even make it slightly stronger.

    As it stands, I think I played Bard recently on AP Expert, helping with healing on the final boss. And on the last boss of mmDD. Went fine. No problems with healing.

    OK, so reflecting on the MM nerf and where they put all melee dps rogue builds, it looks like rogues are - by design - lower then warriors as melee and ranged dps
    I don't think by design - I just think Trion aren't very good at balancing. Fair play, the soul system makes it very complicated to do so. They've just bitten off far more than they can chew.

    Yes it will mean that bards will be a bit OP in raids considering they raid buff 20 people, but... who cares?
    Who cares about balance issues? Everyone. Trion especially. So many people come on the forums, make suggestions that would make Bard OP, and then everyone posts "wow I agree that's so cool we need that". But you're not trying to convince the mouth breathers on the forums. You're trying to convince Trion.

    An argument for buffs that has "Yes, we'll be OP, but so what?" is going to get laughed at by the developers. If you want us to be OP, you're going to have to trick them into believing that we won't be.

    Right now bards are not effective in 5 mans, it's debatable if they're effective in 10 mans (I'm used to not using one) and necessary in 20 man raids. So to me that means they're balanced around 20 man content, and pretty useless outside of 20 man raids.
    One of the reasons I didn't take your post seriously is you're just wrong. Bards are plenty effective in 5 mans. We can do as much healing as we need to i.e. if a Bard and Cleric / Chloro can't heal an instance, L2P issue not a balance issue. I've supported in enough T2s to know this for a fact.

    We're not necessary in 20 man raids - we're just strongly advised. 10 man raids, same applies, although we're easier to replace.

    Is this right? Not to me, bards should be effective outside of 20 man raids. If mages are going to be the top rdps class (which they should be imo) and can heal, why not rogues?
    A class designed to support others will always become more powerful as you increase the number of people. Admittedly, there are ways around this, but I don't think this is an inherent flaw in the way Trion are doing things.

    Also, mages get to heal - we get to tank. Seems like a fair trade to me.

    So what does that mean? I take it to mean we're meant to be the jack of all trades class. OK.. so if that's the case, please make bard a healer.
    Nahhhhhhhh. I don't think it means that at all. I think it means, as I said, that Trion are struggling to keep everyone in balance. Trion never said we'd be able to heal. I don't care if another class is more versatile, I just want to enjoy my own. I was never told rogue could heal, so I rolled it knowing this would be a limitation. If you rolled rogue expecting to be able to heal, or wanting to be able to heal, this a clear PEBKAC issue.
    Last edited by Alyn; 11-02-2011 at 11:54 AM. Reason: removed inappropriate langauge

  10. #10
    Shadowlander Aldus Kalander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronicar View Post
    I have been in 5 man dungeons where the healer went down and the bard healed the boss fight.

    im used to do this as a Bard...

    The healer in 5-man is good? Just use Coda of Fury/Wrath...
    The healer is undergeared/inexperienced? Use Coda of Rest + MoR

    we dont need better heals, there's already lots of souls for healing.
    Bards, IMHO, should not be healers.

    What we need is better mechanics.

    RS get Annihilate on 1.6 as one finisher that gradually gives you more buffs.. why dont make this with Bard's Motifs? A single Motif that gradually trigger more buffs as you invest more points on the Bard Soul.

    The Fanfares changes will already fix some of our needs, make Motifs better (in mechanics, at least ) and give us a little more scalation and Trion will see Bards stopping to /cry .
    yes, my main Soul as a Rogue is Bard...

  11. #11
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Dude, you just said bards are fine in 5 mans.... with current T2s they're so easy you can play anything and it's a joke, but it's not optimal. Falling back on L2P arguments are ridiculous, I can guarantee you I'm better geared (even for bard) then you and I've seen more content. I've been playing healers since EQ in hardcore raiding environments, I only rolled a rogue because they were OP healers in beta. With the current state of bard, if there was a way to make it decent I'd have found it... I've looked plenty. Bards are balanced around 20 man raids, you can use one in 10 mans if you want, but it's generally not required or optimal.

    I'm not trying to trick the devs and make transparent arguments for why bard should be buffed. I find most posts like that annoying, they're so transparent and usually made by articulate idiots. Plenty of those on the forums.

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you balance bards around 5 man content they'll be OP in 20 man raids. There's no way to argue they won't be so I don't try. I'm saying balance bard around 5 man content which will make them OP in 20 man raids, but it won't matter. Bards don't stack, as long as the target is 80% of cleric/chloro HPS single target and aoe healing you'll still only want one bard per raid. If it was a class you could stack in raids then being OP would be an issue, for bard it is not. As soon as you add a 2nd bard they become a pure healer, there's is nothing outside of maybe runspeed they can add that's beneficial.
    Last edited by Mayi; 11-01-2011 at 05:41 AM.

  12. #12
    Plane Walker Vera's Avatar
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    Dude, you just said bards are fine in 5 mans.... with current T2s they're so easy you can play anything and it's a joke, but it's not optimal. Falling back on L2P arguments are ridiculous, I can guarantee you I'm better geared (even for bard) then you and I've seen more content.
    LOL. Alright, so FIRST you say they're inadequate for 5 mans, and now you're saying it doesn't matter because they're so easy?

    I didn't say YOU couldn't learn to play, I'm saying that if you had a cleric and a bard who couldn't heal a 5 man, THEY would have L2P issues.

    Also, there is not a single boss fight in the game I have not seen, or played Bard on. That includes Akylios.
    Last edited by Alyn; 11-02-2011 at 11:55 AM. Reason: removed inappropriate language

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple Shikamari's Avatar
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    I've healed 5 mans with a shamicar assistance (no doctrines) on trash. Bards are fine. If you aren't breaking 1khps in raids your leaders are stacking too many healers.

  14. #14
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shikamari View Post
    I've healed 5 mans with a shamicar assistance (no doctrines) on trash. Bards are fine. If you aren't breaking 1khps in raids your leaders are stacking too many healers.
    In an aoe encounter doing 1k hps is easy yea, still doesn't make bards a good healer. Any class that's only healing 5/6 of the time is bad at healing. Imagine if in a raid all the healers stopped healing for 5 seconds every 30 seconds... hps numbers would be fine right up until you wiped. Plus, without cures and a rez you can't really say you're a true healer.

    My point is if rogues are getting the shaft dpswise becaue of bard - bard better be a hell of a lot better then it is.

    When 1.6 hits and mages are pulling as much dps as our melee and ranged bulids, plus have access to a full healer and full support soul it'll be pretty obvious things are jacked.
    Last edited by Mayi; 11-02-2011 at 10:06 AM.

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple WTFFTW's Avatar
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    give more or better buffs to bard!!!1111oneone
    Whitefall IRC Channel: #Whitefall on Quakenet

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