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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Riftstalker 1.5 vs 1.6

  1. #1
    RIFT Guide Writer
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    Default Riftstalker 1.5 vs 1.6

    Section 1

    Hey all, I jumped on the PTS and obtained information on the new Riftstalker Mechanics.

    **For details on the math calculations below, refer to the new section 1.17 added to my compendium.

    Link to this post:

    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ion-1-0-a.html

    New Stats Analysis

    Below are the results I estimated from testing them on the PTS. If anyone can confirm the accuracy of these values it would be appreciated.

    1 Dext = Aprox +0.04875% chance to deflect (regardless of current dext)
    (The value is somewhere between 0.045% and 0.05%, I'm going to assume 0.04875% for now)
    **Chance to Deflect does not have diminish returns until 45%**

    1 Dext = Approx +0.04875% Mitigated damage from Deflect when having between
    500-600 Dext due to Diminish returns mitigated by Deflect.

    1 Dext = Approx +0.03875% Mitigated damage from Deflect when having between
    600-700 Dext due to Diminish returns mitigated by Deflect.

    Stats summary

    ** Thanks to Radak for providing me with the real Formula for Deflected Amount

    ** Deflected amount = Dexterity / ( Dexterity + 721 )


    I tested this with my stats and it is indeed accurate with the numbers I obtained below

    Every 1 point of dext between 500-600 Dext will grant approx +0.04875% extra mitigated
    damage from Deflect. The chance to deflect is not impacted by DR (Stays @ +0.04875%)

    Every 1 point of dext between 600-700 dext will grant approx +0.03875% extra mitigated
    damage from Deflect. The chance to deflect is not impacted by DR (Stays @ +0.04875%)

    Patch 1.6 Result Summary

    51 RS / 8 BD / 7 Ranger Spec

    With similar Tanking gear

    Block vs Deflect with current 1.6 changes

    Cleric has 67% chance to block for 59% physical damage
    Warrior has 71% chance to block for about 50% physical damage
    Rogue with my stats has 25.63% chance to deflect for 42.27% physical damage

    Rogue tanks take 54% more physical damage than warrior tanks with current 1.6 Changes (This was > 80% in 1.5)
    Rogue tanks take 40% more physical damage than cleric tanks with current 1.6 Changes (This was > 67% in 1.5)
    Rogue tanks have the worst combined dodge / parry being 2% behind warriors 6% behind clerics.

    41 RS / 17 BD / 8 Ranger Spec

    When comparing with 51 RS / 8 BD / 7 Ranger

    Gains:

    15% more base dext which provides an extra +3.54% chance to deflect, +3.19% Deflect Mitigated damage, + 1.73% dodge with my stats
    2% more Mitigation from 3/3 in Bolster
    10% Mitigation from Turn the tides when it is activated
    Some BD Openers / Finishers
    Another interrupt

    Losses:

    784 health
    Scatter of the shadows
    Physical Wellness
    Planar Attraction
    5% absorption from Rift Guard
    15% crit from Ruthless Staker after planar shifting

    Block vs Deflect with current 1.6 changes

    Clerics = 67% chance to block for 59% physical damage
    Warrior = 71% chance to block for 50% physical damage
    Rogue with my stats = 29.17% chance to deflect for 45.46% physical damage

    With Similar Tanking Gear & Assuming Turning the tides is up 50% of the time

    Rogue tanks take 50% more physical damage than warrior tanks with current 1.6 Changes
    Rogue tanks take 36% more physical damage than cleric tanks with current 1.6 Changes
    Rogue tanks have the worst combined dodge / parry being 0.5% behind warriors and 4.5% behind clerics

    44 RS / 17 BD / 5 Sabo Spec (Maximum Dext)

    When comparing with 51 RS / 8 BD / 7 Ranger

    Gains:

    30% more base dext which provides an extra +7.09% chance to deflect, +6.05% Deflect Mitigated damage, + 3.46% dodge with my stats
    10% Mitigation from Turn the tides when it is activated
    Some BD Openers / Finishers (Nothing too amazing)
    Another interrupt
    Sab Adhesive Bomb

    Losses:

    1544 health
    Scatter of the shadows
    Physical Wellness
    4% Mitigation from Bolster
    3.5% absorption from Rift Guard

    Block vs Deflect with current 1.6 changes

    Cleric = 67% chance to block for 59% physical damage
    Warrior = 71% chance to block for about 50% physical damage
    Rogue with my stats = 32.72% chance to deflect for 48.32% physical damage

    With Similar Tanking Gear & Assuming Turning the tides is up 50% of the time

    Rogue tanks take 52% more physical damage than warrior tanks with current 1.6 Changes
    Rogue tanks take 38% more physical damage than cleric tanks with current 1.6 Changes
    Rogue tanks have about 1.25% better combined dodge / parry than warriors but behind 2.75% behind clerics

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________________

    **Section 2 (Updated October 28th)

    MITIGATION EXPLAINED (PTS & LIVE SERVER)

    **Summary

    3% Added Mitigation from Shadow Guard with 1.6.
    With my stats, 1.6 Shadow guard gave 3.1% more Mitigation than 1.5 Shadow Guard. Depending on armor, this could be + / - 2% ish so I'm going put an average of it as a 3% Mitigation boost.

    All traits / abilities below are confirmed to be additive when calculating rogue mitigation
    Exceptional Resilience
    Bolster
    Phantom Blow
    Shadow Guard
    Turn the Tides
    Motif of Tenacity (Bard)

    The following ability is confirmed to be Multiplicative & only calculated after the Additive traits / abilities
    Rift Guard

    The following abilities are unconfirmed
    Power Drain (Mage Archon)
    Protect the Flock (Cleric Sentinel)

    I will be correcting the values of my previous posts over the weekend to reflect my results obtained with the test below.

    Mob Tested: Ashen Duskblade Strictly Final Blow damage taken in RD Normal

    **Below is the math to prove the above

    **LIVE SERVER TEST**

    Legend

    ER = Exceptional Resilience
    B = Bolster
    PB = Phantom Blow
    RG = Rift Guard
    SG = Shadow Guard

    1K damage taken with 1456 armor (18.30%) with no physical mitigation traits

    1000 * 2% ER = 981 test damage
    (likely some decimal value higher than 1000.51 for the actual base damage taken after my armor. They don't seem to round it off to 1001 after armor but they round off the decimals after the mitigation for some reason)
    1000 * 4% ER = 961 test damage
    1000 * 6% ER = 941 test damage
    1000 * (1-(6% ER + 6% B)) = 881 test Damage
    1000 * (1-(6% ER + 6% B +6% PB)) = 821 test damage
    [1000 * (1-(6% ER + 6% B))] * 15% RG = 749 test Damage (132 Absorbed)
    [1000 * (1-(6% ER + 6% B + 6% PB))] * 15% RG = 698 test Damage (123 absorbed)

    These results show that ER, B & FB are actually additivive (My old data is changed by a few % at this point as I believed it to be multiplicative). RG is indeed Multiplicative and only calculated after passives / actives as I had thought.

    Now, if SG was Additive as well, it would give me 24% (5% standard + 1% for my 1K armor)
    1000 * (1-(6% ER + 6% B + 6% PB +6% SG)) = 756 test Damage (This should be 760 Damage but for some reason it's 756 Damage)
    My theory on this is that SG also takes into account every 100 armor as well as every 1k armor. Thus actually giving me 1400 / 1000 = 1.4% (armor bonus from SG) + 5% = 6.4%
    1000 * (1-(6% ER + 6% B + 6% PB + 6.4% SG)) = 756 Damage from my theory also even with the test

    [1000 * (1-(6% ER + 6% B + 6% PB 6.4% SG))] * 15% RG = 643 test Damage (113 absorbed)
    If my above theory is accurate then this works here as well.

    I did an additional test to see if my theory for SG was accurate. To do this, I increased my armor for the lowest amount I could.

    New armor is 1509, Base taken is now 992 after armor (8 lower due to armor increase by juggling gear around)

    SG with above amror = 5% + 1500 / 1000 = 6.5%

    992 * (1-(6% ER + 6% B + 6% PB + 6.5% SG)) = 749 damage (This is what I obtained on the test)
    [992 * (1-(6% ER + 6% B + 6% PB + 6.5% SG))] * 15% = 637 (112 absorbed, same as the test)

    This is an example of what the above would have given me with the old formula I used (I believed it to be multiplicative then & didn't know SG was also slightly increased every 100 armor as well)

    [992 * (1-(6% ER * 6% B * 6% PB * 6. SG))] * 15% = 641(113 absorbed)

    Physical Mitigation Difference between old & new formula = 0.63%, so the difference in my original calculation is negligible.

    **PTS TEST 2010-10-28**

    Put on the exact same armor as on live (1456) and tested the same ability on the same mob (Ashen Duskblade Final Blow in RD)

    Legend:

    SG = Shadow Guard (This is a passive ability on the PTS & it is based off every 400 base armor)
    TtT = Turn the Tide
    MT = Motif of Tenacity

    After Armor mitigation alone with 0 points in any souls, I received 1k damage from Final Blow (same as live)

    New SG (Tested on same mob with the exact same armor on PTS (1456 armor)
    1000 * (1-SG) = 920 test damage
    SG = 5% + 1400 / 400 = 8.5% **but decimals are not included in the new SG so it is rounded down to 8%
    So this means SG strictly only gives 1% mitigation per every 400 armor on PTS. It does not add any decimal value as it does on live.
    Unbuffed armor on PTS (this is with the same gear I tanked sicaron with)
    5319 Armor
    SG = 5% + 13% = 18% SG

    Self buffed armor on Live (SG is calculated off buffed armor on live)
    9965 armor with Archon buff
    SG = 5% + (9900 / 1000) = 14.9% SG

    SG gives 3.1% Mitigation on PTS. While it can vary a few + / - 2%, I'm going to assume on average
    the new SG gives 3% more mitigation than on live.

    1000 * (1-(8% SG + 5% MT) = 870 test damage
    This means MT (Motif of Tenacity) is indeed additive

    1000 * (1-(8% SG + 5% MT + 10% TtT) = 770 test Damage
    This means that Turn the Tide is indeed additive

    Archon Power Drain Untested
    Cleric Protect the Flock Untested
    If anyone knows if the two above are additive or multiplicative please let me know.

    Warrior Tank vs Rogue Tank comparison

    **Updated 2011-10-29

    Refer to this link for the comparison Between War / Rogue (On live, we basically take the same damage as warrior takes on unblocked attack)

    http://forums.riftgame.com/public-te...ior-tests.html

    Suggestions

    Refer to this post for a compilation of suggestions from the rogue community.

    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...mpilation.html

    **Revised 2011-10-28
    New Section 2 added, Section 1 will be modified this weekend with minor alteration with more accurate math data.

    **Revised 2011-10-29
    Added a link to Warrior Tank vs Rogue Tank analysis
    I've decided to wait on Ailions response to what extent Shadow Guard was bugged before modifying my data.
    Last edited by Muffin911; 10-29-2011 at 06:28 PM.

  2. #2
    Ascendant charliekelly's Avatar
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    are your numbers including the shadowguard buff? i mean i know we will still take more was hoping wed close the gap a little more.

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    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliekelly View Post
    are your numbers including the shadowguard buff? i mean i know we will still take more was hoping wed close the gap a little more.
    There was no significant buff to Shadow Guard. The absolute best you'll see is a 3% increase I think, but most will get 1%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by charliekelly View Post
    are your numbers including the shadowguard buff? i mean i know we will still take more was hoping wed close the gap a little more.
    Yes it did, I get an extra 2% from it with the changes and it's calculated in the equation. The math is long and I didn't want to make another long math post so my math is in my original post that's linked. Section 1.17 if you want to look it up.

  5. #5
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    I want 3 finishers instead of one again. TBH, it made the class fun. I'd also still like to see a decrease on Planar Vortex threat.

    I don't think Trion is understanding us quite how we want them to. I know i wanted the class to possibly be more complicated (SC/ele level) and actually have physical mitigation, not simple and taking a baby step in the correct direction
    "You're just realizing the fault of your species, human beings are the most untrustworthy, backstabbing creatures on this planet. Except for bears."

  6. #6
    Plane Walker Vera's Avatar
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    Hrm, went on PTS to do some testing.

    Yeah, I think having it all lumped into one finisher is way too easymode. For all the complaints about how Rift Guard wasn't up at the start of the fight... there were so many ways around that. This was only ever an issue for bad players, people who simply shouldn't be allowed to tank an instance.

    But yeah, it is quite a bit more boring. With 1.4, our AOE threat was stupidly weak, but 1.5 just made it a joke. And now with the additional threat from the reflect? Not sure what Trion are "trion" here. Sorry.

    If I was more cynical, I would suggest that they're buffing every thing that we don't really need, but we would like; and then when they bring in the mitigation changes we actually need, they can remove Planar Vortex. That way, the other callings will think we're being nerfed; they can't really stand to rogues getting buffed, it seems, and doing this would alleviate a lot of the inevitable QQ from warriors about how rogues "shouldn't be able to tank".

    As for damage mitigation, I didn't notice any huge differences. It does feel better, for sure, and I like deflect. But I don't see how a 22% chance of a 37% reduction could possibly compensate for the discrepancies, and the OP seems to indicate that it clearly doesn't.

    What made this more depressing: I did RD Expert with a warrior tank friend of mine (nearly all T2R geared), and he was able to pull multiple packs of mobs without a healer. Was able to heal and cleanse himself on Rictus. I'm not exaggerating, he needed no healing for Rictus (which we tested out when our healer died to Rotting Flesh).

    I'm not expecting to be able to do that, but for me, this really highlighted the difference between us and them, and the changes clearly aren't going to be enough, not by a long shot. Too little, too late.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple Ekryth's Avatar
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    The changes to the RS finishers is what I don't get. So instead of hitting one finisher and getting the appropriate buff, you now just hit a compacted finisher that gives you three buffs? LOL.. wtf Trion? This worries me more for pvp.. Riftstalkers will constantly be able to keep 3 buffs up with 1 button. Holy sh*t....
    Last edited by Ekryth; 10-20-2011 at 10:36 PM.

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    Rift Chaser Devious's Avatar
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    Still, its and improvement.

    I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth but it does warrant more. We should remember that 50% could be cut down significantly if we were looking at the same % chances to deflect and same reduction as warriors/clerics. It still wouldn't be equal but it would be a good start. I approve of the +20-30% flat chance increase. Either that or, put it into one of our talents or a new finisher to replace some of the ones we just lost, something. I don't know the exact number but I do know warriors get a TON of block from their talents.

    I also believe we should be able to get block->deflect in guardian phase. This would "unlock" almost all warrior/cleric exclusive tank essences, and items to us without Trion being required to go and modify them all individually.

    One final thing. One of our MT's in Shoreline was saying looking at the current changes he believes warriors will edge out rogues for best magical mitigation next patch. I haven't the time nor understanding to go over their specs anytime soon, so with that said, Ianto? Muffin? Anyone? Do you know what he's talking about? It's probably to do with these two changes in the paladin tree:

    * Hardened Will: In addition to the base 3-9% Magic mitigation, now also increases Magic mitigation by 0.12-0.35% per point spent in Paladin above 30.
    * Impassable Guard: Now also reduces non-Physical damage by 15%. No longer blocks spells.

    That to me looks like a relative bombshell of magic mitigation.

    Thanks Trion, as usual you've been stellar. ~.~
    Split - Rogue Tank - Purge to Win
    GSB - 5/5 / RoS - 4/4 / HK - 11/11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devious View Post
    Still, its and improvement.

    One final thing. One of our MT's in Shoreline was saying looking at the current changes he believes warriors will edge out rogues for best magical mitigation next patch. I haven't the time nor understanding to go over their specs anytime soon, so with that said, Ianto? Muffin? Anyone? Do you know what he's talking about? It's probably to do with these two changes in the paladin tree:

    * Hardened Will: In addition to the base 3-9% Magic mitigation, now also increases Magic mitigation by 0.12-0.35% per point spent in Paladin above 30.
    * Impassable Guard: Now also reduces non-Physical damage by 15%. No longer blocks spells.

    That to me looks like a relative bombshell of magic mitigation.
    I haven't done the math but if those numbers are accurate it would basically give an extra 26% magic mitigation from warriors with that spec. They would beat rogues on magic mitigation with the extra 26%.
    Last edited by Muffin911; 10-21-2011 at 03:10 AM.

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    Added Gains and Losses to the 2 Bladedancer oriented specs.

    Added block vs deflect comparison for each spec.

    Added a few things in the overall thoughts.
    Last edited by Muffin911; 10-21-2011 at 04:57 AM.

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    The logic on the finishers is obviously related to the reduction in effect times and the fact that a lot of tanking builds use BD as well, meaning rotating through 4 or 5 finishers.

    TBH it doesn't make it any easier, it's just reducing the need to press 1,1,1,2,1,1,1,1,1,3 etc...

  12. #12
    RIFT Guide Writer Ninjahax's Avatar
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    I'm surprised rogues are still taking that much more physial damage after the addition of deflect. Rather disappointing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vera View Post
    Hrm, went on PTS to do some testing.

    Yeah, I think having it all lumped into one finisher is way too easymode. For all the complaints about how Rift Guard wasn't up at the start of the fight... there were so many ways around that. This was only ever an issue for bad players, people who simply shouldn't be allowed to tank an instance.
    I know for sure it was intended for rogues to have to use their defensive cool downs on pull!

    Seriously, put our mitigation in our stance, stop making us pick up mitigation during the fight with finishers, and make our finishers outwardly affect the fight, with things like purges, or dispels.

    At no point during an encounter does a warrior have to use cool downs to grab a shield out of his back pack, instead they are all used to actually tank, not be a sponge.
    Last edited by ShalarLight; 10-21-2011 at 05:39 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

  14. #14
    Plane Walker Vera's Avatar
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    I know for sure it was intended for rogues to have to use their defensive cool downs on pull!
    Splinter Shot, Quick Shot, Shadow Blitz, Rift Guard? That not quick enough?

    We don't have to use defensive cooldowns on pull. We've never had to. Sometimes it's been nice to do that, but it's never really been mandatory. I really think this was an issue for bads only

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    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    I still don't understand the need to nerf Vortex. It's a bit ridiculous now but it's going to scale like crap, like all our threat abilities do, and if they nerf it now we'll be screwed in another patch or two and will have to wait 4 or 5 for a fix. Vortex is literally the only advantage we have in anything, anywhere, at any time, and it's still exaggerated. I don't pull "every single mob" off a Warrior -- a Cleric, yes, but that's an issue with them and not us.

    I think with the Warrior threat changes Vortex will look relatively in line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devious View Post
    Still, its and improvement.

    I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth but it does warrant more. We should remember that 50% could be cut down significantly if we were looking at the same % chances to deflect and same reduction as warriors/clerics. It still wouldn't be equal but it would be a good start. I approve of the +20-30% flat chance increase. Either that or, put it into one of our talents or a new finisher to replace some of the ones we just lost, something. I don't know the exact number but I do know warriors get a TON of block from their talents.

    I also believe we should be able to get block->deflect in guardian phase. This would "unlock" almost all warrior/cleric exclusive tank essences, and items to us without Trion being required to go and modify them all individually.

    One final thing. One of our MT's in Shoreline was saying looking at the current changes he believes warriors will edge out rogues for best magical mitigation next patch. I haven't the time nor understanding to go over their specs anytime soon, so with that said, Ianto? Muffin? Anyone? Do you know what he's talking about? It's probably to do with these two changes in the paladin tree:

    * Hardened Will: In addition to the base 3-9% Magic mitigation, now also increases Magic mitigation by 0.12-0.35% per point spent in Paladin above 30.
    * Impassable Guard: Now also reduces non-Physical damage by 15%. No longer blocks spells.

    That to me looks like a relative bombshell of magic mitigation.

    Thanks Trion, as usual you've been stellar. ~.~
    Impassable Guard is just a finisher that lasts at most for 10 seconds. It used to block ALL attacks (including magic), now it just blocks physical and reduces magic. It was a PvP nerf I think.

    Warriors will remain ahead for two reasons:

    1. They were already ahead, and there's been no change to the "Reaver hybrid" max magic mitigation build.
    2. Reaver got a buff, most significantly -9% to all damage taken from Wasting Away (100% up-time, 18 points). It got the same +x% magic mit per point as Paladin as well.

    I think the old hybrid build is still going to be the best, it's just going to have an extra 9% advantage on us. Clerics are going to be just behind us now as well (5 or 7% I think), so yeah, so much for our 'niche'.

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