+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 35
Like Tree5Likes

Thread: A more balanced approach to VM and FB healing received

  1. #1
    Telaran
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    92

    Default A more balanced approach to VM and FB healing received

    I posted this as a rebuttal to a thread in the cleric forum where someone wanted to reduce rogue damage by 20% to each target we had our healing debuff applied to. Five targets = 0% damage output by the rogue. I felt that was extreme. Here's my reply.

    Instead of reducing the damage a rogue can do (which I find unrelated to the amount of debuffs they spread about) change the formula of heals received.

    Currently, healing received by the rogue is 50%, or 1/2, of what the target receives. Instead, change it to 1/2^x where x=number of players with the debuff applied and ranges from 1-Infiniti. This would make ST debuffing unchanged (1/2^1 is still 1/2), but would quickly and significantly decrease the amount received on multiple targets.

    Assume all targets receive equal healing. i.e. two targets would have 2(1/2^2)=2(1/4)=1/2,
    3 targets = 3(1/2^3)=3(1/8)=3/8 (that is a total amount, not a per target amount. Target would be 1/8 healing received)
    4 targets = 4(1/2^4)=4(1/16)=1/4 etc.

    Formula is X(1/2^X)

    It would still be viable if people are spamming aoe heals, but if people are focusing heals on 1-2 targets, then you would benefit more from ST rather than AOE.

    Currently, healing received is calculated X(1/2). 2 targets = 1, 3 targets = 3/2, 4 targets = 2. Compare these numbers with my formula and you will see the dramatic difference, and maybe some balance.
    Covenant of the Phoenix - Deepwood
    Clarith - Rogue
    RG2 10/11 HK, 2/8 ID

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    206

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarith View Post
    I posted this as a rebuttal to a thread in the cleric forum where someone wanted to reduce rogue damage by 20% to each target we had our healing debuff applied to. Five targets = 0% damage output by the rogue. I felt that was extreme. Here's my reply.

    Instead of reducing the damage a rogue can do (which I find unrelated to the amount of debuffs they spread about) change the formula of heals received.

    Currently, healing received by the rogue is 50%, or 1/2, of what the target receives. Instead, change it to 1/2^x where x=number of players with the debuff applied and ranges from 1-Infiniti. This would make ST debuffing unchanged (1/2^1 is still 1/2), but would quickly and significantly decrease the amount received on multiple targets.

    Assume all targets receive equal healing. i.e. two targets would have 2(1/2^2)=2(1/4)=1/2,
    3 targets = 3(1/2^3)=3(1/8)=3/8 (that is a total amount, not a per target amount. Target would be 1/8 healing received)
    4 targets = 4(1/2^4)=4(1/16)=1/4 etc.

    Formula is X(1/2^X)

    It would still be viable if people are spamming aoe heals, but if people are focusing heals on 1-2 targets, then you would benefit more from ST rather than AOE.

    Currently, healing received is calculated X(1/2). 2 targets = 1, 3 targets = 3/2, 4 targets = 2. Compare these numbers with my formula and you will see the dramatic difference, and maybe some balance.
    Or they could just lower the healing debuff to 30% and call it a day. Wouldn't be the first soul to have a 30% healing debuff. Necromancer comes to mind.

  3. #3
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    I suspect Trion will just do away with FB and VM all together. Too much forum QQ'ing, and they always cave in to forum QQ'ing.

  4. #4
    Telaran Sorrowsong2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    73

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarith View Post
    I posted this as a rebuttal to a thread in the cleric forum where someone wanted to reduce rogue damage by 20% to each target we had our healing debuff applied to. Five targets = 0% damage output by the rogue. I felt that was extreme. Here's my reply.

    Instead of reducing the damage a rogue can do (which I find unrelated to the amount of debuffs they spread about) change the formula of heals received.

    Currently, healing received by the rogue is 50%, or 1/2, of what the target receives. Instead, change it to 1/2^x where x=number of players with the debuff applied and ranges from 1-Infiniti. This would make ST debuffing unchanged (1/2^1 is still 1/2), but would quickly and significantly decrease the amount received on multiple targets.

    Assume all targets receive equal healing. i.e. two targets would have 2(1/2^2)=2(1/4)=1/2,
    3 targets = 3(1/2^3)=3(1/8)=3/8 (that is a total amount, not a per target amount. Target would be 1/8 healing received)
    4 targets = 4(1/2^4)=4(1/16)=1/4 etc.

    Formula is X(1/2^X)

    It would still be viable if people are spamming aoe heals, but if people are focusing heals on 1-2 targets, then you would benefit more from ST rather than AOE.

    Currently, healing received is calculated X(1/2). 2 targets = 1, 3 targets = 3/2, 4 targets = 2. Compare these numbers with my formula and you will see the dramatic difference, and maybe some balance.
    The reason I wanted to cut rogues damage when using VM/FB was not because it healed to much, but because its a very dull mechanic with a passive proc. Your approach do not fix that issue in any way. Im all for a heal debuffs existing for rogues but in a way that makes it a tactical decision when and if to use it = there needs to be a penelty aligned to using it. You can change the damage debuff in below text from 20% to 10% or whatever will be balanced.

    The below approach will make playing a MM/NB spec more dynamic, more about cooperation and thus in my opinion more fun.

    It would also guarrantee that the heal debuffs would not be removed from the game.

    The creative approach:
    Make VM and FB real stand alone abilities that consume a GCD and do no damage, just heal dubuffs.
    Make VM and FB work on multiple targets at the same time (like it is now)
    Make VM and FB clensable (like it is now)
    Make VM and FB have a 0 sec cast time and a 0 sec recast time (apart from the GCD) but..and heres the beauty..
    Make VM and FB have the following effect on the rogue "reduces damage done by the rogue to all players by 20% per VM/FB, applied by the rogue that is active on other players"

    What the above would give you is that if the rogue has VM or FB up on one target they would do 80% of their damage to any targets, if VM/FB up on two targets they would do 60% etc etc

    The beuty of the above is that it would give the following result:

    1. As VM and FB will be real abilities with a penelty for the rogue the rogues will need to do an active choice on when to use them and when not to. This will take care of the boring passive proc mechanic and will also take care of the fact that a rogue right now can both healdebuff, do massive amounts of damage and get heals at the same time.

    2. Rogues would still want to put a VM/FB up on healers even at the penelty of damage but they will need to work together. For example a 3MM team on one side will need to communicate on who will put the debuff up on what healer or potentially one of the MM will put it up on all three healers and thus effectively will be more of a support role in that WF than actually a damage role

    3. In a 1vs1 with a cleric or healmage the rogue will have a harder time killing the cleric/mage as they will have a 20% reduced damage debuff

    4. In a situation where the rogue wants to heal up fast they will put VM/FB up on many targets effectively making their own damage very low but siphoning large amounts of heals from the oposing team, making them more tank like as they will do very low damage but will be harder to kill

    5. As VM/FB will be clensable a cleric/mage will most likely clense it asap but the rogue can reaply it within a GCD. This gives opportunity for i e a MM to get assigned on keeping the debuff up on a specificly "annoying" cleric/mage. They will loose 20% of their damage done plus all the GCDs used to reapply the debuff so it will be a bit of nullifying the opposing healer (or at least 50% debuffing him/her)

    All in all the above changes would make rogues much more of a utility class when using VM/FB. They can still on the fly adjust and controll if they want to avoid useing VM/FB to maximize damage or id they think its more beneficial for the team to keep 1 or more healers healdebuffed.
    The above changes will award active thinking, teamplay and communication. Keeping rogues in a position where they can still DPS as good as now (if they do not use VM/FB) or actively making the choice to suffer some or much of their DPS in order to be more of a debuff/ role.

    Any thoughts on this ?

    //Kamasuthra
    Last edited by Sorrowsong2; 10-17-2011 at 10:34 AM.

  5. #5
    Telaran
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    92

    Default

    So your solution is to nerf our damage to the ground. I played an extremely competitive healer in wow. When I came across someone that was equally geared, had a healing debuff, and dealt damage, I better pop a cd because they were about to kill me. How would it be balanced to nerf a rogue damage when a CLEANSABLE debuff is up? If a rogue blows his wad on a healer, he should have a good chance to kill a healer. This proposed damage nerf is out of balance in extreme favor of the healer.
    Covenant of the Phoenix - Deepwood
    Clarith - Rogue
    RG2 10/11 HK, 2/8 ID

  6. #6
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    2,665

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarith View Post
    I posted this as a rebuttal to a thread in the cleric forum where someone wanted to reduce rogue damage by 20% to each target we had our healing debuff applied to. Five targets = 0% damage output by the rogue. I felt that was extreme. Here's my reply.
    Put your reply in his thread. Your opinion is nowhere near valuable enough to merit this thread. Also, your ideas are terrible. Vampiric healing is about as OP as any other form of healing. Give it a rest.
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 10-17-2011 at 11:27 AM.

  7. #7
    Telaran Sorrowsong2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    73

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarith View Post
    So your solution is to nerf our damage to the ground. I played an extremely competitive healer in wow. When I came across someone that was equally geared, had a healing debuff, and dealt damage, I better pop a cd because they were about to kill me. How would it be balanced to nerf a rogue damage when a CLEANSABLE debuff is up? If a rogue blows his wad on a healer, he should have a good chance to kill a healer. This proposed damage nerf is out of balance in extreme favor of the healer.
    You dont understand it. In a 1vs1 the rogue could put up a healing debuff. This would make him do 80% of his damage and the healer to heal for 50% of his/her healing power. In equal gear a MM/NB would still be a significant threat if played correctly to any healer.

    Right now the debuff is a bit over the top. Either you will get a nerf on it OR you can still have it as powerful as before BUT you need to be smart on when to use it and when not to as it is aligned to a 20% (or whatever %) damage nerf (hardly not nerfing rogues through the ground).

    The healer could cleance it and then your damage is back to 100%, healer used a GCD and the rogue could recast it and use a GCD 2.

    The good thing about this approach is that you can have a very powerful debuff and siphon heal and it will be situational = you need to play smart and use it on one target or many targets when its benificial.

    If you are in a WF and you are low on HP you would spam it around to try to heal up but loosing a lot of your damage while its up on multiple targets.

    What im suggesting is a way to improve the diversity of rogue playstyle without nerfing the heal debuff through the ground. At the same time it would not nerf damage of rogues as you can play a dps MM/NB without using the debuff and be at same damage as you do now.

    Take some time and think about it, you get the best of two worlds/roles you just cant get them at the same time, but you can switch roles on the fly with my approach.

    //Kamasuthra

  8. #8
    Telaran Warmane's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    62

    Default

    Are you friggin serious?

    Vampiric Munitions barely has any noticeable effect on the opposing healers in my War Front. I can spam it all day til the cows come home and they still EASILY keep their whole team topped off and at 100% health constantly. GOOD HEALERS DO NOT CARE ABOUT 50% HEALING DEBUFF of any kind. Would it be even EASIER for them to heal without it? Of course - but it's making little difference into killing their flock now so give it a rest already. Try playing a bit more before coming up with all your stupid "ideas" to fix something that is nowhere near OP!
    Garn - Warrior [50][R4]
    Malazarti - Mage [50][R4]
    Vorg - Rogue [50][R5]
    Jarasha - Cleric [50][R1]
    <The Prismatic Order> a GLBTQ friendly guild on Byriel

  9. #9
    Telaran
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    92

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Put your reply in his thread. Your opinion is nowhere near valuable enough to merit this thread. Also, your ideas are terrible. Vampiric healing is about as OP as any other form of healing. Give it a rest.
    Dunharrow, your reading comprehension is below the level of most 6th graders. I know because I teach them. Re-read the part of my post that you quoted. Second, since when do you dictate whose opinion is and is not valuable? I'm assuming that because I am not in an HK guild, you think I am an unintelligent slime that has no basis for anything I say. I agree that VE is an OP heal. I was simply replying to a post on the cleric forum that proposed a major dps nerf that I opposed. My idea was in opposition to his idea.

    My ideas are terrible? What makes them terrible?
    Last edited by Clarith; 10-17-2011 at 12:09 PM.
    Covenant of the Phoenix - Deepwood
    Clarith - Rogue
    RG2 10/11 HK, 2/8 ID

  10. #10
    Qia
    Qia is offline
    Champion of Telara Qia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,310

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarith View Post
    Dunharrow, your reading comprehension is below te level of most 6th graders. I know because I teach them. Re-read the part of my post that you quoted. Second, since when do you dictate whose opinion is and is not valuable? I'm assuming that because I am not in an HK guild, you think I am an unintelligent slime that has no basis for anything I say. I agree that VE is an OP heal. I was simply replying to a post on the cleric forum that proposed a major dps nerf that I opposed. My idea was in opposition to his idea.

    My ideas are terrible? What makes them terrible?
    The fact that they are terrible makes them terrible.

    VM/FB is a buff to healing clerics, you are just to dumb to see it.
    I don't really know, you teach 6 - graders, so I try to explain it to you.


    Lingering Wounds: Can't be cleansed, can't be purged, has higher chance to apply.

    VM/FB: Can be dispelled, can be purged, has lower chance to apply. VM/FB overwrite LW.

    How hard is this simple concept to you?
    Ip

  11. #11
    Telaran
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    92

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qia View Post
    The fact that they are terrible makes them terrible.

    VM/FB is a buff to healing clerics, you are just to dumb to see it.
    I don't really know, you teach 6 - graders, so I try to explain it to you.


    Lingering Wounds: Can't be cleansed, can't be purged, has higher chance to apply.

    VM/FB: Can be dispelled, can be purged, has lower chance to apply. VM/FB overwrite LW.

    How hard is this simple concept to you?

    Go away troll. No one asked you.
    Covenant of the Phoenix - Deepwood
    Clarith - Rogue
    RG2 10/11 HK, 2/8 ID

  12. #12
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    206

    Default

    Personally I am beginning to hope they remove VM and FB completely. That way when good rogues kill bad healers people will start to look at the healers, instead of the rogues.

  13. #13
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    2,665

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarith View Post
    Dunharrow, your reading comprehension is below the level of most 6th graders. I know because I teach them.
    And your ideas are on the level of most 6th grade teachers. I know, because I passed the 6th grade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarith View Post
    Re-read the part of my post that you quoted.
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarith View Post
    Second, since when do you dictate whose opinion is and is not valuable?
    I speak for the fettered masses of unfortunate children that your pernicious ego debases on a daily basis. Or, I was stating my opinion. Follow the context clues and discover the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarith View Post
    I'm assuming that because I am not in an HK guild, you think I am an unintelligent slime that has no basis for anything I say.
    Don't be so hard on yourself. You undeniably have no basis for this specific thing. I can't speak to your other posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarith View Post
    I agree that VE is an OP heal. I was simply replying to a post on the cleric forum that proposed a major dps nerf that I opposed. My idea was in opposition to his idea.
    You should have posted your response in that thread. Instead, you make wildly speculative claims about vamp heals with no numerical or logical support. You grant that vamp healing is OP and your solution is to do the exact same thing that some Cleric was posting, except to put it on a GCD. Wondrous.

    So you're saying I can waste a GCD to lower my own damage? What a fantastic deal. What a delightful smell you've discovered. But hey at least I get some healing out of it right? Except if I'm not dealing any damage, then he won't need to heal. Oops. Well, maybe I can just go back to being a support guy that runs around spamming a single ability and getting massacred for my trouble. You know, like all rogues before 1.5.

    Are you even a rogue, or do you just play one on the forums? "Your" ideas are no better than the Cleric's ideas that they are based on. They do not hold up to the lightest criticism or discourse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarith View Post
    My ideas are terrible? What makes them terrible?
    Their substance.

  14. #14
    Rift Master Anathemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    676

    Default You error my friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by AceinHole View Post
    I suspect Trion will just do away with FB and VM all together. Too much forum QQ'ing, and they always cave in to forum QQ'ing.
    Its most likely they will do away with rogues altogether. We should all have rolled warriors too... shame on us for daring to be competitive in leather.

  15. #15
    Xsi
    Xsi is offline
    Shield of Telara Xsi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    710

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Renynzea View Post
    Personally I am beginning to hope they remove VM and FB completely. That way when good rogues kill bad healers people will start to look at the healers, instead of the rogues.
    Bad healers will then complain about some other heal debuff (whether it comes from Lingering Wounds or somewhere else). The only appeasement for healing clerics is when they can stand and chain heal themselves through 2+ players attacking/CCing them. To me, that's just as broken balance-wise as pick-your-flavor-Lock in 1v1.

    I'm all for healers having a chance (afterall, I play one from time to time) but honestly I don't think healing has become any less powerful (heal debuffs were just as prevalent with warrior/Lingering Wounds pre-1.5). A Fan Out spam is not going to kill the team by itself (and any AoE heal takes care of the damage). Neither heal debuff is really cleansable given most encounters are group vs. group and reapplication is too easy/random to bother without the AoE cleanse (in a macro).

    Any rogue that spams Fan Out for more than a couple of volleys (unless low health) is also not optimizing assist and thereby hurting their team as well.

    It'll balance itself out just like Eradicate spam did.
    Last edited by Xsi; 10-17-2011 at 01:19 PM.
    Vow - <The Granite Guard> Dayblind (Guardian)
    Vow - Sunrest (Guardian)
    Master Outfitter, Master Butcher, and Master Fo-rager

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts