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Thread: 1.5 Sin PVP Discussion

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
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    Default 1.5 Sin PVP Discussion

    There are quite a few threads falling down the pages and it's getting hard to find them all, so thought I would post what I have been using since 1.5 went live on the Sin front, as well as discussion of issues etc. The post is based on a heavy week of warfronts - lots of Library :/ - and experiences from playing throughout.

    With my Sin I have been running the following builds:

    51sin/15MM/0BD: http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...0V.GARftsfqddR
    51sin/15Inf/0Rng: http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...0c.GARftsfqddR
    51sin/15mm/0Inf: As first build but with Inf instead of BD

    As 51 Sin you really need ranged damage with a range finisher or a good closer. If not, you'll be kited with no way to catch your target.

    My typical Spam Macro:

    Show Savage Strike
    #suppressmacrofailures
    cast Expose Weakness
    cast Serpent strike
    cast Backstab
    cast Savage Strike
    cast Swift Shot (or Quick Shot if RNG)

    Finsher:
    Show Final Blow
    #suppressmacrofailures
    cast Final Blow
    cast Hasted Shot (or Head Shot if RNG)


    With 0BD I have an Oh **** macro:
    #suppressmacrofailures
    cast Side Steps
    cast Poison Malice

    I keep Rapid Fire shot and Deadeye Shot on another Macro.

    51Sin/15Inf/0Rng

    I used to swear by this build! Anyway, in terms of where I've got to. Firstly the 15INF build is the build for killing casters, Cleanse Soul makes you their worst nightmare and Anathema is good for closing the kill. The typical drawback is that not many casters travel alone, they like to hug the rear of the group, so when you engage from stealth, expect that they are going to get heals. You can open with paralysing strike if they are 5k or less HP, but for higher I think a good Assasinate or Jagged Strike is better. The key is application of Anathema and when they move to the healers or one comes to them, use Blinding Powder and Poison Gas on the healer to stop the heal.

    Generally with this build you can take any caster 1v1, it's a matter of time. Save your Cleanse Soul for when you think you need it - lots of mages are Chloro or Warlock specc'd so they'll be popping their heals or Shadow Life.
    What you won't be able to do with this spec is down any high rank full heal specc'd cleric, you'll be able to pressurise them. I've had mixed success on clerics using the new Debillitating Poison andf chasing them round the map, but it's hard to keep them at 0 mana.

    With the Inf build you're much more vulnerable to Warriors and other rogues though. The 15 feat points in Infil are minimal in terms of effectiveness against them when compared against the MM buffs, and to get the full benefit of Focused Intent you have to hit the target 30 times. If that's the case you're in trouble because the Sin isn't designed to fight for that long in terms of survival.

    I have moved away from this build for a couple of reasons. Firstly, with Cleanse Soul on a 2 minute Cool Down it's just not as useful as it should be in PVP due to the large number of casters, the short duration and the fact that I found I used it to kill 1 mage but would run into the next 10secs later... Anathema is good, but clerics know all about heal debuffs and if the target isn't cleansing themselves then the cleric is when healing. Cloudy Poison is useless as most PVP clerics are using instant/fast casting heals. Break Free is nice but Sin now has Cut and Run, and all it buys you is one more CC break on a 2 minute cool down. It's going to effect one fight but not the next 4 or 5!


    51Sin/15MM/0BD

    This is the build I am now playing and enjoying. There is huge synergy from the 15 points spent in MM with the Sin now with the boosts to damage. You lose 1 CC break, Anathema and Cleanse Soul. You gain:

    +25%AP (because you WILL crit every 10secs)
    You ignore 25% of the Opponents Armour (so +15% Armour Pen).
    -1% Damage
    Movement Speed Boost
    Better Ranged Finishers with hasted Shot and Raid Fire Shot.
    +50% dodge for 15secs through side-step.


    The difference in damage between this and the 15Inf build is actually very noticable, and Savage Strike, Puncture, Jagged Strike, Backstab and Final Blow all hit noticablly harder. This spec is much better for stunlock kills and also substantially better against warriors and rogues with Side Steps. With Swift Shot and Hasted Shot it's much much harder to be kited by MM and blink builds.

    The greatest benefit comes from the +25% attack power bonus from Increased Fire Power. The Poison damage scales with AP, as does enduring brew, and the Sin tree complements the MM ranged damge incredibly well.

    With this build you can stunlock other rogues down quite easily unless they are heavy bard/RS builds. It also makes stunlocking mages much easier as well. For warriors you can open with the usual Jagged Strike following up to Impale and then final blow. Popping side steps with Poison Malice is a great for warriors and melee rogues as most are going to be trying to drop you fast with the big hitters.

    If need be you can open with your DOT's, use Malcious Strike (the snare) and then disengage to swift shot>hasted shot and keep range and distance. It also gives you good range potential against MM and mages who open gaps as well as a way to close them.

    Although Anathema is the biggest loss, the damage increase is such that you can drop targets with judicious use of poison gas and blinding powder.


    General

    The Slp Away nerf is massive imo and needs to be rescinded or changed to 2s damage invulnerability. You cannot use it and escape from aoe range and anything with a travel time will still hit you even after you've hit slip away. tealth in general seems a little bugged, with it dropping for no reason unless Hidden Veil is up.

    Even with the new changes, the Sin is still not a melee fighter, it's an ambush fighter and your aim is to pick a target and drop it then get the hell out of dodge. It seems obvious but don't be ashamed to Slip Away if things are not going your way.

    On opening from stealth, there are far more options now. Jagged Strike used to be the default but now I think that is only of use on high HP targets. Anything in the 4-6k health range can probably be stun locked down but that is often gear dependant. Assassinate is a great tool for a KB steal or when you find someone healing up with a drink.

    The general damage boost has proved very helpful, but the biggest changes are to Leeching Poison and Enduring Brew, which become pretty substantial heals. The Improved Poison damage also makes Poison Malice a particularly nice improvement.

    I typically use Lethal Poison and Leeching Poison, or Leeching and debilitating poision for those stubborn clerics. Expose Weakness should always be applied.

    One note on movement in melee range. You should always be circling your target to attack from behind to allow you backstab and the bonus damage from double cross.

    Although I have played 51 Sin almsot exclusively in warfronts, I would say is that 51sin is far more effective at rank 6+ and at lower ranks it may bet better to look at other builds. Having said that, I've never regretted playing it and it is tremendous fun.
    Last edited by Anselan; 10-05-2011 at 04:20 AM.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
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    All your build links go to an Archmage

  3. #3
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    You want a sin discussion but don't mention 15 bd which is the best one of all.

    -_-

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  4. #4
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    I still play 51sin/15inf because the heal debuff and cleanse soul are necessary to beat certain mage and cleric specs. 15 mm or 15 bd will be a little better against rogues and warriors, but those specs aren't necessary to beat them.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by rennlc View Post
    I still play 51sin/15inf because the heal debuff and cleanse soul are necessary to beat certain mage and cleric specs. 15 mm or 15 bd will be a little better against rogues and warriors, but those specs aren't necessary to beat them.
    Actually they just delay them killing you.

    Bd offers more burst with an interrupt which trumps that sh!tty dispellable debuff that any decent player will dispel and clense soul doesn't help you kill them faster.
    Last edited by Raitoken; 10-05-2011 at 05:59 PM.

    Raitoken Rank 8 Rogue | Octuris Rank 2 Mage
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  6. #6
    Rift Disciple Phaetill's Avatar
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    51sin 15mm,pvp king. Combo points up n target trys to run/kite...rfs ftw. seriously I could use horrible pve gear & destroy people in pvp with this build,it's not even a challenge.
    "I was a Rogue before the buffs,I'll be a Rogue after the nerfs"
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  7. #7
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    it would be nice to see them

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    Plane Touched Mgrave66's Avatar
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    I find Sin to be a sub optimal spec atm. I only use it if i want perma stealth or leeching poison.
    Repine

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple Phaetill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mgrave66 View Post
    I find Sin to be a sub optimal spec atm. I only use it if i want perma stealth or leeching poison.
    I use it for stunlocking,sin currently reminds me of early wow sins....brings back memories.
    "I was a Rogue before the buffs,I'll be a Rogue after the nerfs"
    IGN-Phaetill/Shard-The only oceanic PvE shard Rift has
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  10. #10
    Rift Disciple Phaetill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnamontoast View Post
    it would be nice to see them
    If you are talking about ss I will never post wf screens etc,and I will never post parses,you can choose to not take what I say seriously in posts bc of this but I have my reasons.
    "I was a Rogue before the buffs,I'll be a Rogue after the nerfs"
    IGN-Phaetill/Shard-The only oceanic PvE shard Rift has
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  11. #11
    Plane Touched Mgrave66's Avatar
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    Usually only works on lower geared players. With hidden veil being bugged, slip away ganking isnt really viable for me. On my cluster, its rather hard to solo gank, everyone roams in packs. NB works much better for this, I will eventually die, but I can usually get 2-3 kills before i do.
    Repine

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple Phaetill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mgrave66 View Post
    Usually only works on lower geared players. With hidden veil being bugged, slip away ganking isnt really viable for me. On my cluster, its rather hard to solo gank, everyone roams in packs. NB works much better for this, I will eventually die, but I can usually get 2-3 kills before i do.
    I was talking about wf pvp. open world pvp is wildly more situational.
    "I was a Rogue before the buffs,I'll be a Rogue after the nerfs"
    IGN-Phaetill/Shard-The only oceanic PvE shard Rift has
    PvE Matters!

  13. #13
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    Sorry guys, don't know what happened with the builds.

    51Sin/15MM/0Inf: http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...0V.GARftsfqddR
    51Sin/15Inf/0Rng: http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...0c.GARftsfqddR

    Neither of these are mine obviously, I think they've all been posted before.

    @rennic: I did find it hard to move away from the 15Inf build but a couple of things swung it for me. The MM extension is more damage and prevents you from being kited even agains tblink or +movement speed builds.

    The real crux of what swung it though was that Cleanse Soul on a 2min countdown is only effective against a solitary mage. If you are stealth ganking then with the MM build most mages are going to be dead within a stun lock, the Chlorolock build is the main one which can take the damage, however Cleanse Soul didn't materially effect any fight I had with them, I lived longer but they just wore me down 1v1.

    I agree with Phaetill on the MM build obviously, the only rogues doing more KB's than I am at the moment are MM sfarming nublets on the bridge in Port Scion - meanwhile I am actually contributing to winning the game by ganking all their shard runners.


    Certain Warrior builds can be killed by the Inf variant of course, but the 15MM/0Rng does it so much easier and so much better and it also counters more of the warriors and rogues through sidesteps. You can kill a warrior from stealth now on any 51sin build, where you struggle is when you take another target and a warrior Bull Rushes or teleports into you.
    The 15Inf/0Rng build can also be kited by anything with speed increase or blink, something that the 15MM variant makes much harder for your target to do.

    The other thing you need to bear in mind is that there are other Sins out there waiting to pop on you - Cut and Run followed by Side Steps often ruins their plan.


    As I said, the Sin build is probably not ideal until R6 though I played it from R1 through - the 15Inf build is probably better until you have your R6 gear because Cleanse Soul will let you take out mages. Once you get your R6 gear, the flat damage increase from 15MM will outshine this.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mgrave66 View Post
    Usually only works on lower geared players. With hidden veil being bugged, slip away ganking isnt really viable for me. On my cluster, its rather hard to solo gank, everyone roams in packs. NB works much better for this, I will eventually die, but I can usually get 2-3 kills before i do.
    I find the NB damage very poor in comparison though, it could probably use a slight damage increase and certainly would need it if Feel Blades was nerfed.

    I do have a 44NB/22RS build for black garden - the damage done and KB's always lags my Sin, although the NB is better for the mass application of healing debuffs.

    If I am running with a team as well the benefit of the Aassassin's perma stealth is great for surprising the other teams and causing chaos.

  15. #15
    Ascendant sanosuke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anselan View Post
    I find the NB damage very poor in comparison though, it could probably use a slight damage increase and certainly would need it if Feel Blades was nerfed.

    I do have a 44NB/22RS build for black garden - the damage done and KB's always lags my Sin, although the NB is better for the mass application of healing debuffs.

    If I am running with a team as well the benefit of the Aassassin's perma stealth is great for surprising the other teams and causing chaos.
    I find my NB build always has overall higher damage/KB's than my sin mostly because I can go a whole WF with my NB with no deaths. With sin and the current surge of MMs you will get picked off much easier than a NB/RS once out of stealth now NB should have slightly less damage than sin just for the fact NB has a slew of defensive skills to keep them going
    Warfronts need segregation of the Tiers. 1-5 and 6-8 or pre-50 pvp will be the most enjoyable PVP in the game.
    Run and Gun My *Boomstick* MM PVP Guide
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