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Thread: Warrior's Opinion on the state of Rogues in PVP & Balance between Warriors & Rogues

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    Prophet of Telara Zaiana's Avatar
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    Default Warrior's Opinion on the state of Rogues in PVP & Balance between Warriors & Rogues

    To start with I'll say that although this post is saying that rogues are OP, I think the 1.5 changes to rogues are great and much needed, my problems are with rogue's having the ability to 1v1 a warrior IN MELEE without use of ranged attacks/stealth/long stuns/incaps.

    Surely this isn't intended? In my opinion without use of these sort of "sneaky" abilities a rogue should not stand a chance toe to toe with a warrior, if you disagree would love to know why.

    IMO the reason this happens is the large amount of temporary damage immunity (whether that comes from shields, increased dodge, damage reduction, whatever) available to rogues in PVP.

    If warriors had the kind of purge abilities that MM's have it really wouldn't be a problem, but fact is, we don't. An overwhelming majority of rogues have at least 2 hefty damage reductions, if you're fighting a good one (and using a void knight build, one of the few trees that have a purge in it) as soon as you purge one off, they'll throw another back up, and (presumably due to the buffs rogues have recieved) most can now burst me down before their immunities fall off/my purge comes off CD.

    On a positive note, as I said before, the 1.5 changes to Rogues seem great, it's nice to see MM's putting out a bit more single target damage and some other souls have been given some cool abilities to buff them, for example I think the debuff healing by 50% leech 25% healing move is a great idea (Although all healing reductions should be a max of 30% and not 50% IMO)

    EDIT: It's probably worth adding I'm pretty ignorant of what damage reduction skills are available to rogues and in what souls they are in, or even what souls melee rogues use apart from nightblade and assassin
    Last edited by Zaiana; 09-30-2011 at 08:19 AM.

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    Shield of Telara Sixpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaiana View Post
    my problems are with rogue's having the ability to 1v1 a warrior IN MELEE without use of ranged attacks/stealth/long stuns/incaps.
    Based on...?

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    Plane Walker DiamondDog's Avatar
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    rogue should not stand a chance toe to toe with a warrior, if you disagree would love to know why.
    Sure. I'm happy to enlighten you. If you have been playing MMOs for a super long time like myself you understand for the fantasy genre, there is this idea that mages wear cloth, rogues leather and warriors plate. In some games, this isn't the case but in general that is the lore (as well as in movies, books and art).

    That being said, if you remove the lore and look at it from a standpoint of A, B, C. Each person playing a class should be able to beat another 1:1. Some companies like Blizzard have overcome this argument by saying essentially "we don't balance by 1:1". The fact is, whether you are playing a fantasy game, a pirate game, a futuristic sci-fi game you will inevitably want to fight another person in pvp and you will want that fight to be within the realm of fairly matched if you are on equal gear footing.

    I would say that there are FAR MORE games that have imbalanced classes than have balanced classes. Warlocks destroy EVERYONE in DAOC 1:1, as an example.

    You specifically said "melee" souls, but many players, such as myself, do not switch souls depending on who they fight and I myself do not play a ranged soul and in fact I hate that soul even though I've tried/tested it and occassionally gone into a WF as one. So I am 100% melee with my only "ranged" ability being essentially a throwing weapon and a blind. Going back to what I said before, it's my belief that as a player (not as a specific class), I should have a chance at beating another class 1:1.

    Another misplaced notion is the idea that rogues beat mages, mages beat warriors and warriors beat rogues. (clerics not being able to beat anyone but being able to survive against anyone). This just doesn't do well, imho, when actual players are fighting another player 1:1. It's annoying to have a feeling that some "bully" soul can beat you hands down every time.

    I don't think that ANYclass should be able to beat someone every time (with equal gear, experience, etc).

    I can speak at length about Assassin rogues and bards, but no other. Assassins have no real damage mitigation ability except for blind, a short stun or a slip away. We do have a propensity for dodging. Hence, a good reason to take another soul such as bladedancer or another where you can get an evade, a blink or such. In WoW it actually hurt you as many times the warrior had a greater ability to do damage if they used a style that followed an evade. They could spam that ability the more you evaded.

    But you addressed a concern I've had for quite some time. I hear people saying things like "You get x, and y, and z" and yet if I take x, it precludes me from getting the z ability as I cannot go that high in both trees at the same time. So while fighting one rogues uses a 51-pt ability on you and another uses a different 51pt, we dont get both 51pt abilities. It's too easy for opposing classes to try and painst an overarching story of "OPness" when they lump all these abilities into one stream of thought.

    Last night I did several WFs and did I feel more powerful? Hmm. Yes. The problem is that part of that may be me thinking that due to the improvements I SHOULD feel that way. Part of it may be that the person I fought was lower ranked or the wrong soul.

    I tried out MM last night just to test it and got my *** handed to me 4x in a row by some guy. LOL. I don't know how to play MM very well. So I came back as my regular soul combination and kicked his butt so easily I felt bad for doing it. That sort of thing changes perceptions of others quickly. Was I OP or not? What did I do that enabled me to go from sucking to being OP? Well, for one, I played a soul combo that I have played for 90% of my time.
    Rogue: 0/0 HK or any other PVE content. Over 120+ days /played in PVP content exclusively as an Assassin. (yes, 2800 hours)
    Yes, I know MM and NB rule. No, I don't want to switch to a MM. Yes, I know they are the best. No, again, I'd rather improve Assassins.

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    Plane Walker DiamondDog's Avatar
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    Sorry for the "wall of words" but I'll just quickl add that I've never played a warrior.

    I do know that SOME warriors- they beat me down SO fast it's shocking and bewildering. Not many. I'd say 4x a month it happens. I can't tell you what their abilities are, how they do it or what they are doing but it's insane. I don't go read those logs because frankly, I sort of like the challenge and just come back to try again
    Rogue: 0/0 HK or any other PVE content. Over 120+ days /played in PVP content exclusively as an Assassin. (yes, 2800 hours)
    Yes, I know MM and NB rule. No, I don't want to switch to a MM. Yes, I know they are the best. No, again, I'd rather improve Assassins.

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    Rift Disciple
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    Well, I mostly play Bard and I can't handle Warrior, so not all "Rogues" can handle Warrior one on one. :P Warrior does so much damage on me that I just can't out-heal. My only option is to run and then eventually die if I can't find another target to heal off.

    What kind of Rogue can handle Warrior face to face? Did a Sin/Stalker ambush you? If yes, then that is a "trick". They "stealth" in to have initial burst damage on you.

    Or, are you talking about Marksman? A good Marksmans can give Warrior nightmare because of the hit&run strategy. Maybe you should switch to another target?
    Last edited by Jibikaorift; 09-30-2011 at 08:46 AM.

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    Ya rogues were made for melee... we have 4 melee souls... 2 streight up dps, 1 tank, 1 half and half

    The way Trion views the rogue lore is CDs.. lots and lots of CDs.. being sneaky to them is just stealth and blowing the right move at the right time. My melee, nonstealth, specs have around 6-7 2 minute CDs and near as many 30~ sec ones. It makes them extremely good at deuls because they can blow any and all survivability/dps they have in the 20 seconds it takes to kill you. Then without worry, just sit back, and chat for the minute and a half it takes to get all the pop-ables back and precede to cream your face in again if you so desire...

    WFs are an entirely different beast and the one Trion is balancing on so if you care to call imbalance do it in that retrospect, not your deuling experiences.

    Oh and eradicate should die. Or move to the ranger tree as a 44 point move. The thought of purging 1-2 min CDs, 2 at a time, with a spamable move in a ranged, hard core dps soul is just stupid.
    Last edited by garethh; 09-30-2011 at 08:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaiana View Post
    my problems are with rogue's having the ability to 1v1 a warrior IN MELEE without use of ranged attacks/stealth/long stuns/incaps.
    Are you 2handed or S/B? Because if you are 2handed, rogues were ****** those type of warriors way before 1.5

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    Prophet of Telara Zaiana's Avatar
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    Just to clarify, by stand toe to toe with a warrior I don't mean win one on one, it's coming back to the winning without use of long stuns/stealth/ranged. I guess I'm just QQing because warrior survivability is at an all time low to be honest, maybe I'm just jealous because I want some immunity CDs since my plate doesn't do much :P

    I'm a 2handed warrior, and I did miss the first 2 months of this game, but even my sword and board ragestorm variant build still loses about 50% of the time against one of the rogues in my guild (without him using stealth/stuns/ranged again) (I wish I'd asked for his spec, I'll update this post later on with it).

    And my feedback is primarily a result of 1v1 dueling and 1v1s in open world pvp. I understand warfronts are a pretty terrible way to judge.

    EDIT: I realise it probably doesn't seperate it from the other QQ posts, but for what it's worth, this is the first nerf/buff about any class I've posted (Minus some small suggested warrior nerfs)
    Last edited by Zaiana; 09-30-2011 at 10:06 AM.

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    Shadowlander
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    Ill give you my leather and Ill wear your plate + bonus Ill give you the Immunities you want sounds good?

    Ill be happy to exchange anytime LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sin2BeRogue View Post
    Ill give you my leather and Ill wear your plate + bonus Ill give you the Immunities you want sounds good?

    Ill be happy to exchange anytime LOL
    Until you make the switch and realize plate is overrated.

    To the OP - Go Sword and Board and if you lose, it's probably your fault or gear.
    Last edited by mattya802; 09-30-2011 at 10:23 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaiana View Post
    To start with I'll say that although this post is saying that rogues are OP, I think the 1.5 changes to rogues are great and much needed, my problems are with rogue's having the ability to 1v1 a warrior IN MELEE without use of ranged attacks/stealth/long stuns/incaps.
    I didnt wait 1.5 to kill a warrior from same rank in melee...and i dont even see what big difference did it bring about it.imo it just opened some rogue on different souls than 51 sin specc.the 1v1 part has not much to do with 1.5

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    Telaran
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    To the OP - I appreciate the fact that you made a reasonable post asking a question and stating an opinion without immediately going "NERF ROGUES THEY ARE SO OP" in every other line.

    Now, on to your point. In my opinion, the rogue class has a soul that is more specifically designed to kill someone (any class) 1v1 more so than any other class, that soul is obviously Assasin. Being able to pick and choose your battles and catch anyone completely unawares in the open world is an advantage that is second to none, especially with the damage buffs made to the class. Do I think that is overpowered? Eh...I'm kind of 50/50. Before 1.5, I would generally be able to kill a rogue, a slightly lower ranked mage, and possibly an even ranked cleric if I got the jump on them (which would generally be always since it was open world - none of this matters in a wf); as for a warrior, I might have killed at best 20-30% of warriors I jumped that were at full health, regardless of rank, they just did too much damage for me to handle. Even if I bled them and tried to be cheap, the win wouldn't feel genuine. Now I can kill pretty much anyone I see that isn't r8 (i'm rank 6) in the open world if I get the opener. Very rarely do I have trouble, but when I do, it's usually from a warrior or another rogue, not so much mages or clerics now.

    Since I've been babling I'll actually address what you posted about (sorry lol) - I believe you were likely facing a mainly Nightblade rogue, who likely has infil or sin/bd off souls, possibly a NB/MM (but you mentioned he didn't range you at all). Nightblade damage is all non-physical now (or at least it is for the most part) so your armor means nothing to him. At that point, it's about who does more dps (likely you) vs. who is taking more/less damage (he takes less do to reactives and 2 min cd's specifically designed around defense) therefore you lose in a face to face smashup. Have him change specs to sin and not open on you and you'll likely see a different result.

    Right now, imo, the only rogue souls that feel relatively powerful (and not really all that "over powered" are pvp NB and open world assasin ganking or maybe mm at r6+ when ppl are completely ignoring you.

    I do think that warriors in general were pretty much to where they needed to be before this patch, I think the 1.5 sec IGCD was unnecessary as long as they took away the damage on your interrupts (bash/furious rage to name a few) that were Off Global and could crit upwards of 1.5k on me.

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    The warriors that got killed by a Rogue... were you using 2h/duel or you were a tanking build with shield?

    I am asking this because most Warriors in pvp I've seen are all 2h/duel weapons. That is what I would call an "Offensive" build. You choose offense over your survival.

    You can't expect your "offensive" build to last long, can you?

    Now, can any of you Rogues here kill a "tanking" Warrior fast? My guess is a warrior with a shield and a lot of damage reduction built in.

    People tend to think all Rogues can kill Warriors fast. I know my Bard and Rangers can't. Just like not all Warriors are built to be "tough". If you are mostly champ/riftblade for offensive purpose, why should you expect to survive long? I know there's more than one type of Warrior, just like there's different Rogues and Clerics. The healing Clerics are countered but how are the offensive Clerics like Inquis and Cabal?

    All I keep reading about is how Paper keeps getting owned by Scissors.....
    Last edited by Jibikaorift; 09-30-2011 at 01:49 PM.

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    General of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattya802 View Post
    Until you make the switch and realize plate is overrated.
    Whether or not armor is over-rated consider this. My rogue is currently in full or nearly full T1 plaque and purple T1 drop tank gear. My warrior has a few T1 epic drops and T1 plaque pieces, but she also has 3 pieces of the reinforced transplanar set, the helmet, legs, and boots, for her tank set. My rogue, without any armor bonuses like Guardian Phase or Toughened Soul, has 2656 armor. My warrior sits on 4627 armor. That's a 75% increase in armor despite gear that, in terms of item level or item quality, is inferior. Even my warrior's DPS gear, which is worse than her tank gear (hell, I'm using the chest piece from the tank set since it was an upgrade over her old DPS piece ), pushes out 4023 armor.

    /shrugs. Over-rated or not plate armor still generates a heck of a lot more armor than leather does.

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    Champion of Telara Morituri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaiana View Post
    Surely this isn't intended? In my opinion without use of these sort of "sneaky" abilities a rogue should not stand a chance toe to toe with a warrior, if you disagree would love to know why.
    Because then people would complain about rogues slipping away. Rogues shouldn't be able to fight warriors straight up, they shouldn't be able to run away, they shouldn't be able to stealth b/c you need to see them, they shouldn't be able to eradicate your buffs while they do no damage, they shouldn't be able to teleport around, and they shouldn't be able to get speed buffs to kite you. I think that about sums up the warrior perspective on rogues.

    Quite pathethic when you actually read them all at once.

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