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Thread: Rogues probably deserve a nerf now... PVP based post

  1. #1
    Shield of Telara
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    Default Rogues probably deserve a nerf now... PVP based post

    I am only rank 7, I an only imagine how much stronger I will get when I hit R8. Let me go on record as saying that this is my thoughts after one night of about 2 hours of PvP and listening to my cleric, mage and warrior counterparts that I trust with their opinions. I have yet to fight someone I know is a REALLY good warrior, but I've fought multiple warriors in the 7K HP range and toasted most of them.

    They need to scale back some of the damage on Assassin... It's like Trion tried to give Assassin's enough burst to kill healing specs, w/out regard to what that burst in damage does to non-healing specs. Killing any mage that doesn't have like 8000+ HP is pretty a easy, stunlock death. They should scale damage back like 10% as a start. If you get 2 assassin's attacking someone from stealth, that person you attack has basically no chance. It's basically an instadeath.

    Also need to move enduring brew to a 2 minute cooldown. Warriors got a stealth nerf on touch the light which now gets mitigated by the healing debuffs and it's on a 10 minute cooldown. Granted theirs is lower in the list to get from pally and it takes like 25 points in sin to get enduring brew.. but still, brew heals for like 1500-2000 life and is on a 1 minute cooldown.

    I like what they did with the fell blades & vampiric, giving part of the healing your target receives is nice... BUT, they need to make that only able to be effective on one target at a time. Otherwise I think this was the most spot on buff rogues got.

    I like what they did to MM for the most part... But I'm sad that they ruined the burst... granted MM does more damage overall now, the burst is gone for the most part.

    Trion did some GOOD things in 1.5. Removing the damage shield proc from weapon enchantments was great and a good start... but the nerf to Blood thirsty is a huge nerf to warriors... yes I realize it's a nerf to everyone as well, but with the self healing we can do now and the generic healing that mages & clerics do, it's not as big of a deal. They should change blood thirst back to what it was, remove the ability to stack from it and see how that works out.

    I think NB is probably too strong now... but I'm not sure what to change on it. maybe reduce the healing and dmg reduction of twilight trancendence to 30% and remove the damage from fell blades.


    With these nerfs to rogues, they need to fix the damage output and healing of some of the mage & cleric classes... You don't need to buff rogues up to be able to kill them, you need to balance out their damage output compared to the healing they can do in relation to their mitigation.

    Oh, and for all of you bastards who haven't been playing rogues for <= 1.4, piss off... You FOTM punks.. Go back to your other character, I'm tired of seeing all the damn rogues out now because you get to be OP for a while.

    Flame on, I know you want to.
    Last edited by StrifeV; 09-29-2011 at 09:36 PM.
    Snuggles - R40 Rogue : Snugglybear - R36 Mage
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  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara
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    Now I kill other people just as fast as they kill me. I fail to see the problem, other than the fact that it isn't what people are used to when they see a Rogue.
    Last edited by Calo; 09-29-2011 at 09:56 PM.

  3. #3
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    I agree that the heal-theft of Vamp/fell needs to be limited to one target, but I do not see an issue with heal-reduction being applied to multiple targets.

    Enduring Brew doesn't strike me as much of an issue. It is a free pot once a minute. Great for 1v1, and completely useless if you get focused. Turning it into a HoT might reduce the power in 1v1 and still keep it useful for Warfronts.

    Nightblade damage is high, but every non-physical spec is high damage, from any calling. That is more of an issue with P6/P8 armor having extremely high armor values compared to P2/P4, but having the same resists (none). Physical vs Non-physical damage is probably something that should be addressed game wide.

    Re: Assassins - That is what pretty much every other calling has been doing when they hit P7/P8. you can drop a lowbie before they can even cleanse. Again a game wide issue, but one that needs to be addressed.

  4. #4
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    Im getting sick and tired of people b!tching about the healing debuff.

    Purge

    If the debuff only applied to one target the healing received would be fking worthless.

    The damage buff was needed. Most Rogues just had to deal with being underpowered for so long that getting any buff makes them that much better.

    Theres nothing wrong. Just deal with it and be happy.
    Last edited by Vindicit; 09-29-2011 at 10:18 PM.

  5. #5
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    Yeah, I get that people would view us as being over-buffed, but it's not going to be clear with what needs to be buffed/nerfed until people adapt their specs to counter their new rogue overlords. 51 RB, 51 'lock, and w/e the cleric sent/warden healing builds are all still very good and I expect we'll be seeing even more of those for starters.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched Malkieri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vindicit View Post
    Im getting sick and tired of people b!tching about the healing debuff.

    Purge

    If the debuff only applied to one target the healing received would be fking worthless.

    The damage buff was needed. Most Rogues just had to deal with being underpowered for so long that getting any buff makes them that much better.

    Theres nothing wrong. Just deal with it and be happy.
    This.

    If VM got nerfed to one target it would become entirely useless. The only bonus any MM pvp build gets is this heal. If the heal goes then melee specs are far superior in almost any PvP situation.

    And yes, purge. MM rogues have next to no buffs. ONE eradicate usually gets rid of both munition buffs or atleast one.

    The amount of rogues I just purge and they become useles is crazy. And the best thing is, none of them even look at buffs. I've had rogues i've purged munitions from play out an entire game without refreshing.

    Hard counter = purge. No need to nerf it.

  7. #7
    Rift Master Yoma's Avatar
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    i loled everytime i read stunloock stunlock!! in a game where every caling has several purges ... and the DR system is going to make 70% of the stuns "immune" .... well.

    if an assasisn gets you while your purges are on GCD, just die. otherwise purge and fight. its thats simple

  8. #8
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    Oh man, I hate it when other rogues purge my ammo. Especially when I'm AoE spam and I suddenly lose half my health to all the mage armor or static shield procs that I'm no longer absorbing with leech heals.

  9. #9
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    So Assassin's are overpowered because they can stunlock a mage and kill them? To me this says:

    "Hi, I'm a mage and I have never bothered taking Archmage for my CC break because I never had to worry about Rogues before. It's rediculous that they can stunlock me for 5 seconds and kill me, I should be able to stand there and take their burst before healing, turning around and burning them down".

    Long and short of it, if you are PVPing and you havemn't even selected the PVP soul for it's CC break then you deserve to be killed.

    Further to that, oh the horror of TWO Assassins being able to gank one person and they didn't have a chance. Kind of reminds me of 2 warriors or 2 mages or 2 clerics against 1 rogue. I agree that it's shocking, and in fact every single class should be able to take on two players of another class!!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkieri View Post
    This.

    If VM got nerfed to one target it would become entirely useless. The only bonus any MM pvp build gets is this heal. If the heal goes then melee specs are far superior in almost any PvP situation.

    And yes, purge. MM rogues have next to no buffs. ONE eradicate usually gets rid of both munition buffs or atleast one.

    The amount of rogues I just purge and they become useles is crazy. And the best thing is, none of them even look at buffs. I've had rogues i've purged munitions from play out an entire game without refreshing.

    Hard counter = purge. No need to nerf it.

    This.

    I can't believe so many people were b!tching that MM was dead in PvP when it is very much alive and it is even MORE important.

    This 1.5 patch has made MM the most important PvP spec to bring to a WF, not because Rogues are good now but rather that Eradicate has now become 10x more important.

    You can remove MM munitions which makes them do far less damage, you can remove EVERY SINGLE BUFF a NB can proc including black out(I've done it) and Twilight Transcendence along with their shields and Fel Blades.

    Doing these things makes a NB useless as most of their damage comes from their buffs(Nightrage, Scourage of Darkness ect) and a good portion of damage from MM's.

    Raitoken Rank 8 Rogue | Octuris Rank 2 Mage
    Member of <The Fallen Sons>, Freeholme Server

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrifeV View Post
    I am only rank 7, I an only imagine how much stronger I will get when I hit R8. Let me go on record as saying that this is my thoughts after one night of about 2 hours of PvP and listening to my cleric, mage and warrior counterparts that I trust with their opinions. I have yet to fight someone I know is a REALLY good warrior, but I've fought multiple warriors in the 7K HP range and toasted most of them.

    They need to scale back some of the damage on Assassin... It's like Trion tried to give Assassin's enough burst to kill healing specs, w/out regard to what that burst in damage does to non-healing specs. Killing any mage that doesn't have like 8000+ HP is pretty a easy, stunlock death. They should scale damage back like 10% as a start. If you get 2 assassin's attacking someone from stealth, that person you attack has basically no chance. It's basically an instadeath.

    Also need to move enduring brew to a 2 minute cooldown. Warriors got a stealth nerf on touch the light which now gets mitigated by the healing debuffs and it's on a 10 minute cooldown. Granted theirs is lower in the list to get from pally and it takes like 25 points in sin to get enduring brew.. but still, brew heals for like 1500-2000 life and is on a 1 minute cooldown.

    I like what they did with the fell blades & vampiric, giving part of the healing your target receives is nice... BUT, they need to make that only able to be effective on one target at a time. Otherwise I think this was the most spot on buff rogues got.

    I like what they did to MM for the most part... But I'm sad that they ruined the burst... granted MM does more damage overall now, the burst is gone for the most part.

    Trion did some GOOD things in 1.5. Removing the damage shield proc from weapon enchantments was great and a good start... but the nerf to Blood thirsty is a huge nerf to warriors... yes I realize it's a nerf to everyone as well, but with the self healing we can do now and the generic healing that mages & clerics do, it's not as big of a deal. They should change blood thirst back to what it was, remove the ability to stack from it and see how that works out.

    I think NB is probably too strong now... but I'm not sure what to change on it. maybe reduce the healing and dmg reduction of twilight trancendence to 30% and remove the damage from fell blades.


    With these nerfs to rogues, they need to fix the damage output and healing of some of the mage & cleric classes... You don't need to buff rogues up to be able to kill them, you need to balance out their damage output compared to the healing they can do in relation to their mitigation.

    Oh, and for all of you bastards who haven't been playing rogues for <= 1.4, piss off... You FOTM punks.. Go back to your other character, I'm tired of seeing all the damn rogues out now because you get to be OP for a while.

    Flame on, I know you want to.
    You been listening to your cleric, war and mage friend. ! LOL.
    Seriously either ur a noob or you cant see the ballance these new changes has brougth upon us.
    Iam r6 rogue and yesterday i killed war and war killed me over and over it was fair fights clerics i was able to kill after his mana was out (they still have detount, they shouldnt complain) Mages with chlorolock specs are still strong as hell and they should complain either.
    The only nerf i can see trion do is nerf marks burst ability a little but not much, this changes are good, now people cant just ignore rogues when the pop out of stealth or sniper mm they are lethal like they were intended to be.
    Nobody care if you talk with ur guildies about these things and then post on forums and complain, go back to wow if u dont like the new changes and if ur mage,cleric,war friend die to rogues if they ignore them its only fair that is what heppen to me and alot of rogues before all the time.
    Now r8 rogues are able to kill r8 cleric,mages, and war and the only thing that matter is skills and not the class!
    Go Go Trion, finally u managed to ballance this game. <3

  12. #12
    Telaran Argee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raitoken View Post
    This.

    I can't believe so many people were b!tching that MM was dead in PvP when it is very much alive and it is even MORE important.

    This 1.5 patch has made MM the most important PvP spec to bring to a WF, not because Rogues are good now but rather that Eradicate has now become 10x more important.

    You can remove MM munitions which makes them do far less damage, you can remove EVERY SINGLE BUFF a NB can proc including black out(I've done it) and Twilight Transcendence along with their shields and Fel Blades.

    Doing these things makes a NB useless as most of their damage comes from their buffs(Nightrage, Scourage of Darkness ect) and a good portion of damage from MM's.
    If the best counter to a MM is another MM, isn't that a problem?

    I seem to recall us Rogues whining quite a bit that the only counter to warriors were more warriors.

    Note that I am not saying that any of the Rogue pvp specs that are floating around out there needs nerfing. I have no personal experience with playing a Rogue in pvp since patch, since work sucks. So no personal experience with the changes. Just saying that if this is the line we are going to go with, we are in muddy waters.
    Officer of Ginnunga.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anselan View Post

    "Hi, I'm a mage and I have never bothered taking Archmage for my CC break because I never had to worry about Rogues before. It's rediculous that they can stunlock me for 5 seconds and kill me, I should be able to stand there and take their burst before healing, turning around and burning them down".

    You obviously don't know anything about mages. There is not a single mage PvP spec that I know off running around without break free. Even in the earlier patches, archmage was essential for mages to be remotely competitive. Anyway, hope you enjoy your biased view on things for now.... everyone knows the rogue nerfs are coming regardless of how much rogue's QQ. Many reasonable rogues have spoken up against the changes, only to be shot down by their own brethren (who were probably playing wars in 1.4 and dusted off their rogues when they read the patch changes on the PTS).

  14. #14
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    I can't speak to the PVP part yet, not had time to try it. But rogues needed a buff. Warriors were always out DPSing us, and the only viable specs for raid DPS was Sabdancer.

    It sounds from the posts that we are on par with Warriors, so given ability and situation the fight can go either way. Hell if they do the same DPS as us, a warrior should win. They do have more armor and health.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrifeV View Post
    I am only rank 7, I an only imagine how much stronger I will get when I hit R8. Let me go on record as saying that this is my thoughts after one night of about 2 hours of PvP and listening to my cleric, mage and warrior counterparts that I trust with their opinions. I have yet to fight someone I know is a REALLY good warrior, but I've fought multiple warriors in the 7K HP range and toasted most of them.

    They need to scale back some of the damage on Assassin... It's like Trion tried to give Assassin's enough burst to kill healing specs, w/out regard to what that burst in damage does to non-healing specs. Killing any mage that doesn't have like 8000+ HP is pretty a easy, stunlock death. They should scale damage back like 10% as a start. If you get 2 assassin's attacking someone from stealth, that person you attack has basically no chance. It's basically an instadeath.

    Also need to move enduring brew to a 2 minute cooldown. Warriors got a stealth nerf on touch the light which now gets mitigated by the healing debuffs and it's on a 10 minute cooldown. Granted theirs is lower in the list to get from pally and it takes like 25 points in sin to get enduring brew.. but still, brew heals for like 1500-2000 life and is on a 1 minute cooldown.

    I like what they did with the fell blades & vampiric, giving part of the healing your target receives is nice... BUT, they need to make that only able to be effective on one target at a time. Otherwise I think this was the most spot on buff rogues got.

    I like what they did to MM for the most part... But I'm sad that they ruined the burst... granted MM does more damage overall now, the burst is gone for the most part.

    Trion did some GOOD things in 1.5. Removing the damage shield proc from weapon enchantments was great and a good start... but the nerf to Blood thirsty is a huge nerf to warriors... yes I realize it's a nerf to everyone as well, but with the self healing we can do now and the generic healing that mages & clerics do, it's not as big of a deal. They should change blood thirst back to what it was, remove the ability to stack from it and see how that works out.

    I think NB is probably too strong now... but I'm not sure what to change on it. maybe reduce the healing and dmg reduction of twilight trancendence to 30% and remove the damage from fell blades.


    With these nerfs to rogues, they need to fix the damage output and healing of some of the mage & cleric classes... You don't need to buff rogues up to be able to kill them, you need to balance out their damage output compared to the healing they can do in relation to their mitigation.

    Oh, and for all of you bastards who haven't been playing rogues for <= 1.4, piss off... You FOTM punks.. Go back to your other character, I'm tired of seeing all the damn rogues out now because you get to be OP for a while.

    Flame on, I know you want to.

    Dear Trion/Blizzard/Sony/Various MMO Company,

    I am writing this post because I am digusted with the recent (Insert Patch Number Here) changes. Until now I have been able to farm/grief/solo (Insert Weak Class/Spec Here) , and I find it extremely inconvient that now I am being forced to use abilities and strategies that I am not comfortable having to learn to compete. I am currently playing (Insert Non Previous FOTM Class/Spec Here - It makes you look like the victim if you don't admit to being the previous FOTM class/spec Tee Hee) but my buddy/girlfriend/guildie/whatever plays that buffed class and admits that they are now too OP. I think you should nerf (Insert whatever ability they just buffed in the patch here) because I would like things to return to the easy farm/grief/solo ways they were.

    If you do not make these changes (Insert MMO Company Here) you will loose a customer! (Not really I'm actually playing in window mode and rerolling the other class/spec but I dont want to admit that.)

    Sincerely yours,

    Obvious Troll
    Last edited by Alazin; 09-30-2011 at 04:42 AM.

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