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Thread: My Bard thoughts (LONG)

  1. #1
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    Default My Bard thoughts (LONG)

    As a 51 bard, and that's all I get to do on guild raids because my DPS gear is inferior to our other rogues, I wanted to put down some thoughts for discussion and hopefully, maybe, generate ideas for improvements to the Bard spec. My idea of the "support" role is that I will be a character that contributes to the survival of the group or raid. My ideas tend to exclude the thought that I will contribute actual or meaningful DPS, but that isn't to say that I am against the idea of doing some DPS. All that said, I also think that the bard spec overall isn't bad and does contribute currently. So...

    1) Motifs are way too repetetive. I do think that bards need to bring a plethora of buffs to a group/raid, but not at the expense of being the main thing that you end up contributing because you don't have time to do anything else. In other words, I don't mind casting them, but 30 secs duration is way too short.

    Side note: Motif of Encouragement - Simply put, wtf? (see suggestions below)

    2) Anthems, in my opinion, are pretty much where we would want them, not much to say here. I actually like to switch them up and see how the different outcomes work. For instance, in Drowned Halls on the first boss we may try Anthem of Glory if the tank can stand toe-to-toe, but if not the Anthem of Competence can be used for a kiting scenario that is, simply put, effective.

    3) Verses: Here I have a couple issues.

    a) Verse of Captivation/Fascination - 8 secs of duration means exactly what? Nothing in my opinion. Even uping this to 15 seconds would make it more useful. 20+ seconds would make it truely useful. I can understand leaving the aoe mez at 8 secs due to PvP abuse. Though, in PvE it means much less to me.

    b) Verse of Vitality - It's not terrible, and when used with Virtuoso and 5cp is off the charts amazing. I would like to see the healing scale better and that is about my only issue here. Too much more healing would make the aforementioned Virtuoso combo overpowered.

    c) Verse of Joy - excellent support ability, very desireable and appreciated

    d) Verse of Rebirth - Just fine as it is, imo.

    4) Coda's:
    I would like to see Coda of Cowardice and Coda of Distress have greater debuffing. Mainly, this would overall increase the DPS of the group/raid and thus make the bard overall more valuable.

    Coda of Restoration in my opinion is in the same boat as Verse of Vitality, they both need the same things.

    Coda of Wrath and Fury - These are odd to me. Because they do damage from range they imply that they are made to fill a DPS function. However, the DPS is worth squat except when combined with Riff and Virtuoso. I would think that they need to either be boosted to be more meaningful, or changed entirely. Personally, I would like to see them changed to additional debuffs like the other codas. Something that reduces mob hit chance, parry/dodge/block chance, lowers resists etc. I know I would like to use the Virtuoso + Wrath combo more on boss fights, but I usually end up not going for it just in case something goes wrong and we need massive heals asap. (Granted, that is a personal choice not a game/class issue)

    5) Fanfares - Only thing that needs to be said here is that we need to be able to run two at a time of our choice. In raids, I have yet to see three bards ever. It's always 1 or 2. When we only have 1 bard we L.O.S. buff casters with the Fanfare of Knowledge and then do the same thing with the melee's with Fanfare of Power. This isn't needed, just let us cast both or choose to skip one and run Fanfare of Vigor. I mean really, who cares if I buff the tank and rogues with Int and Wis? Mages with Str and Dex? Pfft.

    6) The Others:
    Riff - simple and effective
    Virtuoso - Awesome, 'nuff said
    Cadence - Ehh, ok I guess. About as boring as spamming motifs. At least it does some healing while giving 3 cps? Taking a look at scaling issues might make this more fun and feel really useful.
    Power Chord - Would be utterly lame if it wasn't impossible to block/dodge/parry. 2 cps is nice I guess.

    Suggestions:

    1) Eliminate Motif of Encouragement, this is wasted space...fluff abilities like this belong on an item...like something you get for finding artifacts, not in the soul system.

    2) I would love to see a new class of powers called "Chords". You could have things like;
    Chord of Terror - an instant fear type spell.
    Chord of Cleansing - obviously a cleanse, either single or aoe
    Chord of Shielding - damage shields!
    Chord of Inspiration - Short duration raid DPS buff
    Chord of Evacuation - Group Teleport to the nearest dungeon exit or Taco Bell, whichever is closer.
    Chord of Defibrilation - Battle rez yeah!
    Chord of Laceration - an attack that causes a target to bleed. (air attack)
    Chord of Burning - Light someone on fire with music. (fire attack)
    Chord of Strangulation - Vines attack the target causing suffocation over time (life attack)
    Chord of Entropy - A deathly pall settles on the target sapping their life force (death attack)
    (Notice: I am a fan of abilities that would let us concentrate on maintaining (de)buffs while still adding a bit of DPS behind the scenes)

    3) For god sakes, give us instruments to equip as weapons that actually enhance us as bards!! Sounds to match the weapons would be sweet too. My axe should be made by Les Paul!

    If you made it this far, thanks for reading.

  2. #2
    Soulwalker Deifact's Avatar
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    I really like your ideas.

    The elemental chord dots are a cool idea, maybe they could debuff different stats too, like fire debuffs str or something.

    Having instruments is cool too, reminiscent of bards in many other games.

    The problem is I doubt trion will invest so much time in a single soul, so although these threads are fun, I can't help feel they are a little pointless.

    Best thing seems to either accept bard how they are, play a different soul or play a different game.

  3. #3
    Soulwalker Bagleygames's Avatar
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    Default Bard Needs Better Instruments

    I think one way they could've enhanced the Bard experience was to make different instruments available. Just like you get better quality weapons or different types of weapons, why not different types and ones with better quality. Flutes, harps, etc. They could even have rare instruments with their major events. Each type of instruments could have different elemental buffs, ie flutes would be wind.
    Just a though!
    I tried WoW once, but I didn't inhale!

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    I finally made my first Cleric and start to leveling him. I am only lvl 16 but I've tried quite a few combinations.

    I think I can see why Cleric is a better choice for support or maybe Mage because they are more versatile than Bard. In PvE, you have the luxury of standing still to cast Cadence. Mobs don't go "around" you so you don't need to turn your head. However, in PvP, if there is a Warrior on me, I need to run. There is no way I can out-heal the damage in between (stuns, rooted and whatnot), but when I run, I can't really heal myself. Power Chord doesn't leech health and Motif of Regeneration's healing is too little to matter. What's worst is I only have 20' range!

    As a Cleric (Inquis), I can cast instant spells on the run and use Warden's HoT. The amount of healing is not as good as Bard spamming Coda of Restoration but Liquis is way more offensive when I want to. Bard's best healing is combo 5 Coda of Restoration but it's hard to do when I am under attack and trying to stand still. Oh and Cleric has better armor.... T_T


    I really like Bard's simplicity especially I can heal the party member without "clicking" them. That's one aspect that I really like. I just wish Bard could be a bit more versatile. The 20' range is really annoying because that pretty much forces me get Riftstalker's guardian phase. Cleric's healing has 35' range! Cleric can safely stay on the back and heal/support.

    I don't mind the repetitiveness of Motifs. I just mind the duration. It needs to be longer or stronger.

    And the two Coda debuffs are kinda weak IMO. They should include some damage along with the debuff.

  5. #5
    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...oro-pvp-7.html
    The guy in the later pages of this thread talks about how he's a R8 Rogue and constantly outperforms chloros. Bards must be fine.
    ~Quiescent

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...oro-pvp-7.html
    The guy in the later pages of this thread talks about how he's a R8 Rogue and constantly outperforms chloros. Bards must be fine.
    Mine is only lvl 31. I don't know how end-game is like but isn't there is a pretty big disparity between R1 and R8 equipment?

    Out-performs in what categories? I don't think my Bard has bad healing. I just think if somebody decides to kill me (hell, even a good Marksman gives me trouble if he is good at kiting since he has 35' range and I only have 20'), I have very few ways to survive and kiting is definitely not good enough with channel.

    I've never played a high level Chloros so I won't comment on it. I just know Cleric seems to be more versatile. I've tried to come up fancy builds with Bard/Ranger and I don't like it atm. My damage is too low and my survival is even worse.
    Last edited by Jibikaorift; 09-27-2011 at 02:31 PM.

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    @Jibikaorift - Just want to (gently) call you on one thing. "In PvE, you have the luxury of standing still to cast Cadence."

    That is only a luxury in a fight with no movement, otherwise it becomes a nightmare easily on par with pvp.

    @Zaros - No doubt there are some players that rock the house down. However, the unsubstantiated claims of one bard in pvp doesn't amount to much to me. I would speculate that he should have said, "When I pop Virtuoso, I outperform chloro's." As a player that has a chloro and a bard, I feel that chloro's are far more powerful in pvp as healers than bards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahem View Post
    @Jibikaorift - Just want to (gently) call you on one thing. "In PvE, you have the luxury of standing still to cast Cadence."

    That is only a luxury in a fight with no movement, otherwise it becomes a nightmare easily on par with pvp.
    So far I haven't encountered any fight that requires me to move at all. This is regular pve contents of course. Haven't tried any dungeons yet. I find that the more I move, the more aggro I can draw. The enemies in this game "glue onto" you. It's almost impossible to kite them once they hit you. lol

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    Random idea:

    What about a friendly fire cadence? One that you cast on a friendly and its function changes depending on their role or something. Kind of like a buff beam. I get that the motifs offer weak versions of these, but something that is situational that we could use reactively could be pretty darn cool.

    Tank: Reduced dmg, incr threat
    Healer: Incr sp
    Dps: Incr sp/ap

    The trade off would be you're not aoe healing (aside from motif of regen), and you're not gaining combo points to use a finisher
    Last edited by Fonk; 09-27-2011 at 03:14 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jibikaorift View Post
    So far I haven't encountered any fight that requires me to move at all. This is regular pve contents of course. Haven't tried any dungeons yet. I find that the more I move, the more aggro I can draw. The enemies in this game "glue onto" you. It's almost impossible to kite them once they hit you. lol
    when you enter dungeons and then raids you will need to move or you will die/wipe your party.
    a good bard develops a way to generate points while moving without cadence but its still a pain

    can anyone direct me to the changes being made to bard? or the rogue changes in general?
    Are all the changes listed somewhere? havent found it yet, thnx

    to the OP nice post, I agree

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chovie View Post
    when you enter dungeons and then raids you will need to move or you will die/wipe your party.
    a good bard develops a way to generate points while moving without cadence but its still a pain

    can anyone direct me to the changes being made to bard? or the rogue changes in general?
    Are all the changes listed somewhere? havent found it yet, thnx

    to the OP nice post, I agree
    I can generate combo points while moving but I just die quicker in pvp.

    I am thinking about using bow to generate combo points. Is this effective way? I thought about it but I still need to be within 20' to use Coda.

    I guess I can try to use melee attacks to generate points when a warrior is chasing me. Mmmm, looks like Assassin has good attacks to stun and snare so I can get away easier.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jibikaorift View Post
    I can generate combo points while moving but I just die quicker in pvp.

    I am thinking about using bow to generate combo points. Is this effective way? I thought about it but I still need to be within 20' to use Coda.

    I guess I can try to use melee attacks to generate points when a warrior is chasing me. Mmmm, looks like Assassin has good attacks to stun and snare so I can get away easier.
    I use powerchord and some kind of ranged skill I no longer remember the name of..fiery spike?

    I dont pvp but I imagine that would require near constant movement?

  13. #13
    Plane Touched Malupit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahem View Post
    1) Motifs are way too repetetive. I do think that bards need to bring a plethora of buffs to a group/raid, but not at the expense of being the main thing that you end up contributing because you don't have time to do anything else. In other words, I don't mind casting them, but 30 secs duration is way too short.
    That's the bane of (most)every bard. including me. it's just FREAKING ANNOYING!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahem View Post
    3) Verses: Here I have a couple issues.

    a) Verse of Captivation/Fascination - 8 secs of duration means exactly what? Nothing in my opinion. Even uping this to 15 seconds would make it more useful. 20+ seconds would make it truely useful. I can understand leaving the aoe mez at 8 secs due to PvP abuse. Though, in PvE it means much less to me.
    I like it the way it is. If something stuns BUT is doable while in combat, 20sec would just be plain op, even in pve.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mahem View Post
    b) Verse of Vitality - It's not terrible, and when used with Virtuoso and 5cp is off the charts amazing. I would like to see the healing scale better and that is about my only issue here. Too much more healing would make the aforementioned Virtuoso combo overpowered.
    That's what us bards want, BETTER SCALING. cause as of right now in pve, our raid heals can't even compare ANYWHERE NEAR what a chloro/cleric does. I mean sure we have infinite energy, but still, our dps is lower than hell already, so give us a chance to heal better ya know??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahem View Post
    4) Coda's:
    I would like to see Coda of Cowardice and Coda of Distress have greater debuffing. Mainly, this would overall increase the DPS of the group/raid and thus make the bard overall more valuable.
    Agree also, cause again, our dps is ****, might as well buff the crap outta the raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahem View Post
    Coda of Wrath and Fury - These are odd to me. Because they do damage from range they imply that they are made to fill a DPS function. However, the DPS is worth squat except when combined with Riff and Virtuoso. I would think that they need to either be boosted to be more meaningful, or changed entirely. Personally, I would like to see them changed to additional debuffs like the other codas. Something that reduces mob hit chance, parry/dodge/block chance, lowers resists etc. I know I would like to use the Virtuoso + Wrath combo more on boss fights, but I usually end up not going for it just in case something goes wrong and we need massive heals asap. (Granted, that is a personal choice not a game/class issue)
    I think about this too; imo they should also contribute to healing, like put 10-20% of the damage done as healing, like reparation, or lifegiving/lifebound veil. That would be NICE....


    Quote Originally Posted by Mahem View Post
    Power Chord - Would be utterly lame if it wasn't impossible to block/dodge/parry. 2 cps is nice I guess.
    i personally think of this skill as simply USELESS; it's just there to generate 2cp if u need it quick, nothing else, kinda the semi holy S*** button for bard (maybe)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahem View Post
    1) Eliminate Motif of Encouragement, this is wasted space...fluff abilities like this belong on an item...like something you get for finding artifacts, not in the soul system.
    omg I love you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahem View Post
    2) I would love to see a new class of powers called "Chords". You could have things like;
    Chord of Terror - an instant fear type spell.
    Chord of Cleansing - obviously a cleanse, either single or aoe
    Chord of Shielding - damage shields!
    Chord of Inspiration - Short duration raid DPS buff
    Chord of Evacuation - Group Teleport to the nearest dungeon exit or Taco Bell, whichever is closer.
    Chord of Defibrilation - Battle rez yeah!
    Chord of Laceration - an attack that causes a target to bleed. (air attack)
    Chord of Burning - Light someone on fire with music. (fire attack)
    Chord of Strangulation - Vines attack the target causing suffocation over time (life attack)
    Chord of Entropy - A deathly pall settles on the target sapping their life force (death attack)
    (Notice: I am a fan of abilities that would let us concentrate on maintaining (de)buffs while still adding a bit of DPS behind the scenes)
    love the suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahem View Post
    3) For god sakes, give us instruments to equip as weapons that actually enhance us as bards!! Sounds to match the weapons would be sweet too.
    I think this would be better as a trinket or something.


    In all I agree with most of your changes. I like it.

  14. #14
    Plane Walker Vera's Avatar
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    Sitting Comfortably?

    Side note: Motif of Encouragement - Simply put, wtf? (see suggestions below)
    I begin to tire of this debate. It's clearly a free ability. Just ignore it, leave it alone.

    For instance, in Drowned Halls on the first boss we may try Anthem of Glory
    I loled.

    a) Verse of Captivation/Fascination - 8 secs of duration means exactly what? Nothing in my opinion. Even uping this to 15 seconds would make it more useful. 20+ seconds would make it truely useful. I can understand leaving the aoe mez at 8 secs due to PvP abuse. Though, in PvE it means much less to me.
    CC always runs for less time in PvP than it does in PvE. You can't sap someone for 45 seconds in PvP. Capitvation could use a time-increase, maybe 10-15 seconds. Fascination is pretty nice though. Great in PvP, and very useful on... uhhh... Estrode ;P

    b) Verse of Vitality - It's not terrible
    Verse of Vitality is awesome good

    c) Verse of Joy - excellent support ability, very desireable and appreciated
    Verse of Joy could probably use some tweaks. Rogues are less energy starved than they used to be, with 1.5, and some specs they simply cannot run out of energy. Cleric DPS benefits nothing from VoJ. Could usefully be changed to affect all roles more equally, but it works pretty well as is.

    Coda of Restoration in my opinion is in the same boat as Verse of Vitality, they both need the same things.
    We're a support soul, not healing. Also, our healing abilities do scale, just poorly. This is probably what Trion intend; we're supposed to do the same, low percentage of healing across all raid levels, with all gear.

    Coda of Wrath and Fury - These are odd to me. Because they do damage from range they imply that they are made to fill a DPS function. However, the DPS is worth squat except when combined with Riff and Virtuoso
    Weak attacks are still attacks. Bard's aren't really supposed to do uber DPS. Yeah, they do poor damage, and again, this will almost certainly be Trion's intent.

    When we only have 1 bard we L.O.S. buff casters with the Fanfare of Knowledge and then do the same thing with the melee's with Fanfare of Power. This isn't needed, just let us cast both or choose to skip one and run Fanfare of Vigor. I mean really, who cares if I buff the tank and rogues with Int and Wis? Mages with Str and Dex? Pfft.
    We actually never bother doing this in our raids, but yeah, I agree. Unless they change it so you can't use the LOS trick to buff all of the raid, they might as well just let you use both at once.

    Cadence - Ehh, ok I guess. About as boring as spamming motifs. At least it does some healing while giving 3 cps? Taking a look at scaling issues might make this more fun and feel really useful.
    Sigh. Why does everyone think Bard is going to be more fun to play if Cadence does more damage? Do you honestly think you're going to be having more fun because Cadence hits a bit harder? You're still pressing exactly the same buttons with identical rotations. What difference does it make?

    More to the point... we always raid with Bards. Evidently we're useful or people would stop taking Bards in raids. Trion shouldn't make arbitrary changes just so some people can "feel more useful". If you don't feel useful playing Bard, just leave your guild and join one that lets you DPS.

    Power Chord - Would be utterly lame if it wasn't impossible to block/dodge/parry. 2 cps is nice I guess.
    It's useful for getting two CPs quickly on the move. Also, it makes a satisfying "twang" sound.

    1) Eliminate Motif of Encouragement, this is wasted space...fluff abilities like this belong on an item...like something you get for finding artifacts, not in the soul system.
    REALLY? REALLY? You sat down and thought "what's wrong with Bard?" and the FIRST THING YOU COME UP WITH was Motif of Encouragement? REALLY? Really though?


    2) I would love to see a new class of powers called "Chords". You could have things like;
    Chord of Terror - an instant fear type spell.
    Chord of Cleansing - obviously a cleanse, either single or aoe
    Chord of Shielding - damage shields!
    Chord of Inspiration - Short duration raid DPS buff
    Chord of Evacuation - Group Teleport to the nearest dungeon exit or Taco Bell, whichever is closer.
    Chord of Defibrilation - Battle rez yeah!
    Chord of Laceration - an attack that causes a target to bleed. (air attack)
    Chord of Burning - Light someone on fire with music. (fire attack)
    Chord of Strangulation - Vines attack the target causing suffocation over time (life attack)
    Chord of Entropy - A deathly pall settles on the target sapping their life force (death attack)
    (Notice: I am a fan of abilities that would let us concentrate on maintaining (de)buffs while still adding a bit of DPS behind the scenes)
    OK, this is... messy. You want Bards to people able to... no, actually, I don't think I can even understand any of this. We're not healers, no reason to get a cleanse (inb4 archons). Damage Shields? Group Teleport? Battle Rez? You... wait... OK.

    No... I just don't know where to start. Some of these are insanely OP, and some of them are pointless. Death damage? What does it matter if we do a bit of death damage / fire damage / air damage? Not sure I see the point in any of that. Also,

    3) For god sakes, give us instruments to equip as weapons that actually enhance us as bards!! Sounds to match the weapons would be sweet too. My axe should be made by Les Paul!
    This gets brought up an awful lot. Here's the problem:

    I would have, by now, a relic lute. Except I don't, because they don't exist. If I am suddenly required to have a lute to play Bard, I would have to go get one, and undoubtedly it would be significantly worse than what I would have, had it always been included. My ability to play Bard would be dramatically reduced.

    More to the point, we're already pissed off enough by bosses dropping relic cleric tanking wands. How annoyed are you going to be when you take down Akylios and your relic loot is.. uhh... a relic lute?

    It's not that it couldn't work. Trion could simply allow us to exchange DPS weapons for an equivalent musical instrument. I have two T2R tanking swords and I could definitely sacrifice one of those. But I cannot imagine that being something Trion would ever implement. Just seems like an unrealistic expectation.

    But I can't deny, I would absolutely love Trion to implement Bardic weapons. I just don't think it would work : /

    Anyway, I don't mean to be a **** about your ideas. I just think some of them are unrealistic, and some of them are missing the point of the soul. If we want Trion to make changes to Bard, we can do that: we just need to provide them with ideas that will be easy, won't affect balance much, and won't have any complaints from other callings. In other words: nothing that most people would actually want ;P

  15. #15
    Plane Walker Vera's Avatar
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    Heh. OK, I read some of the other posts. I'm not doing anything better, so some more comments incoming:

    That's what us bards want, BETTER SCALING. cause as of right now in pve, our raid heals can't even compare ANYWHERE NEAR what a chloro/cleric does. I mean sure we have infinite energy, but still, our dps is lower than hell already, so give us a chance to heal better ya know??
    Lol, no. No **** we don't do as much healing as a cleric or chloro. We're a support soul. Guess what: we do significantly more healing than Archon or Dominator. I don't see Archons qqing about that (although maybe they are).

    Bard is a fine balance of healing, DPS and buffing. But with balanced souls, you get less specialisation in any one particular area. This is just a fact of life.

    I think about this too; imo they should also contribute to healing, like put 10-20% of the damage done as healing, like reparation, or lifegiving/lifebound veil. That would be NICE....
    Read what I posted above, same applies.

    i personally think of this skill as simply USELESS; it's just there to generate 2cp if u need it quick, nothing else, kinda the semi holy S*** button for bard (maybe)
    How can you say an ability is useless, and then give an example of one of its uses? It's actually very useful for that, and it can be used on the move whereas Cadence can't. Seriously.

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