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Thread: The glass canon... what it should be

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    Ascendant sanosuke's Avatar
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    Default The glass canon... what it should be

    was watching some pvp videos and came across these two.. i found them funny because they show similar setup one showing what a true glass canon mage can do and what a MM does.. granted the mage has red ball during first half the video even after it fades he puts up some crazy numbers.. and its funny watching the MM without hit & run going and how easily his damage is healed through.. yet the mage is instant death and can do it without worrying about cooldowns(just cast times which in this sort of group setting don't matter much).. lightning burst is just insane.. heh

    MM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LyQsAn2gYA
    Mage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKJlo...eature=related
    Warfronts need segregation of the Tiers. 1-5 and 6-8 or pre-50 pvp will be the most enjoyable PVP in the game.
    Run and Gun My *Boomstick* MM PVP Guide
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    Mage has like 5 sec reaction time, seriously. He is dazed, daze ends, he needs 1 sec to turn around, 1 sec to use an ability.
    Ip

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    General of Telara Sarathor's Avatar
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    If mages could have the mobility than Rogues have, then I would see the problem.

    My ex-main is a mage, and I have 1 50 defiant rogue, but now I'm leveling a new rogue on the Guardian side, and she's level 40 right now.

    I've played Marksman in Warfronts since level 19, switching between MM and Sin when I feel it's best (like codex is good for Sins, unless you're protecting the codex flag). Anyway, the one thing I've noticed about MM that mages don't have, is the mobility. It's harder for a mage to gain distance on a target than a MM is.

    Now, I'm not saying Marksman are fine, and I'm not saying Mages are fine, or need help. I fully believe Devouring Shadows needs a tweak, and I fully believe Hit and Run should not be taken away.

    However, I've been on the PTS, and Marksman can lay out some decent damage. On a test dummy, my swift shots were hitting for 1k in full R8, and on a Warrior they were hitting for around 600. MM Finishers were also hitting very hard.

    I cannot say whether these numbers are a boost from before, since I don't have a R8 Rogue to test the differences. However, the duels that I've done, Marksman isn't doing to bad, not to mention deaden being a 10 energy cost (down from 40) helps MM even more with casters.

    I see a Mage as a glass cannon, they hit hard, and can kill fast, but they can also die easily. Of course, there will be some specs that done, warlock and chloromancers, but overall, the rest of the soul are very much like a glass cannon.

    Marksman, on the other hand, I view as a ranged mobile class that has many ability to keep away from their enemies while still doing damage on the run.

    EDIT: Also, MM is getting some love come Wednesday with Vampiric Munitions, so that will help with their damage being healed through.
    Last edited by Sarathor; 09-25-2011 at 08:00 AM.

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    This thread isn't entirely relevant, given the changes that are coming next week. Hopefully MM will be in a good place...I'm nervous about the lost burst, but all we can do is wait and see at this point.

    The thing that makes me laugh is that Mages actually believe they are gimped. They have the best AoE in the game, arguably the best 1v1 build in the game, and despite the fact that they are *supposed* to be a glass cannon, actually have a fair amount of survivability tools in a lot of their builds.

    The MM has two escape tools and faster run. Retreat is buggy as hell and just gets you killed half of the time. When it works right and takes you away from the enemy, the range isn't actually far enough to stop them from just ranging you down. When you use it too soon after turning, it usually shoots you the wrong way right into enemy territory. Sprint is nice, but because of the short duration really isn't as good as most would think. MM is a lot more glass and a lot less cannon on Live. Outisde of CD's they are worthless.

    Hopefully it's all about to change next week. In anticipation of this patch, I've been playing my Mage instead of my Rogue for a while. At level 37, I've been amazed the whole time at how much faster, easier, and safer every single aspect of the game has been. I'll see if it holds true at 50, but I suspect it will.
    Last edited by Calo; 09-25-2011 at 08:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarathor View Post
    If mages could have the mobility than Rogues have, then I would see the problem.

    My ex-main is a mage, and I have 1 50 defiant rogue, but now I'm leveling a new rogue on the Guardian side, and she's level 40 right now.

    I've played Marksman in Warfronts since level 19, switching between MM and Sin when I feel it's best (like codex is good for Sins, unless you're protecting the codex flag). Anyway, the one thing I've noticed about MM that mages don't have, is the mobility. It's harder for a mage to gain distance on a target than a MM is.

    Now, I'm not saying Marksman are fine, and I'm not saying Mages are fine, or need help. I fully believe Devouring Shadows needs a tweak, and I fully believe Hit and Run should not be taken away.

    However, I've been on the PTS, and Marksman can lay out some decent damage. On a test dummy, my swift shots were hitting for 1k in full R8, and on a Warrior they were hitting for around 600. MM Finishers were also hitting very hard.

    I cannot say whether these numbers are a boost from before, since I don't have a R8 Rogue to test the differences. However, the duels that I've done, Marksman isn't doing to bad, not to mention deaden being a 10 energy cost (down from 40) helps MM even more with casters.

    I see a Mage as a glass cannon, they hit hard, and can kill fast, but they can also die easily. Of course, there will be some specs that done, warlock and chloromancers, but overall, the rest of the soul are very much like a glass cannon.

    Marksman, on the other hand, I view as a ranged mobile class that has many ability to keep away from their enemies while still doing damage on the run.

    EDIT: Also, MM is getting some love come Wednesday with Vampiric Munitions, so that will help with their damage being healed through.
    getting distance with a stormcaller isnt much differn't than with a MM... half stormcallers abilities have some sort of snare.. top that with ride the ride the wind and static barrier id say stormcallers have even better tools for getting away then MM.. although with the DR's people are immune pretty fast anyway so that doesn't matter one way or another... one thing MM does have is of course more damage on the move.. but for the scenario in the videos it doesn't matter much.. both are more group oriented spec's and mages group oriented spec's just outshine rogues in a lot of ways.. unless you are spamming eradicate then that's another thing..
    Warfronts need segregation of the Tiers. 1-5 and 6-8 or pre-50 pvp will be the most enjoyable PVP in the game.
    Run and Gun My *Boomstick* MM PVP Guide
    The Night Bomber PVP Spec + Rogue PVP Guide Compilation
    Blood and Fire Sin/NB PVP Guide

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calo View Post
    This thread isn't entirely relevant, given the changes that are coming next week. Hopefully MM will be in a good place...I'm nervous about the lost burst, but all we can do is wait and see at this point.

    The thing that makes me laugh is that Mages actually believe they are gimped. They have the best AoE in the game, arguably the best 1v1 build in the game, and despite the fact that they are *supposed* to be a glass cannon, actually have a fair amount of survivability tools in a lot of their builds.

    The MM has two escape tools and faster run. Retreat is buggy as hell and just gets you killed half of the time. When it works right and takes you away from the enemy, the range isn't actually far enough to stop them from just ranging you down. When you use it too soon after turning, it usually shoots you the wrong way right into enemy territory. Sprint is nice, but because of the short duration really isn't as good as most would think. MM is a lot more glass and a lot less cannon on Live. Outisde of CD's they are worthless.

    Hopefully it's all about to change next week.
    thats the problem the burst is what you need in pvp to get that healer down at that split second.. now they will just heal through it all and laugh at you even more than they do now... MM's need something like static barrier mages get and yea retreat just needs to be removed and something else put in its place something like flicker would be better
    Warfronts need segregation of the Tiers. 1-5 and 6-8 or pre-50 pvp will be the most enjoyable PVP in the game.
    Run and Gun My *Boomstick* MM PVP Guide
    The Night Bomber PVP Spec + Rogue PVP Guide Compilation
    Blood and Fire Sin/NB PVP Guide

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    All i saw from this video is.

    MM can't kill ****. 100-300 shot damage? 1000 damage crit with 5 combo finisher? lol
    MM got maybe 2 kills in 7 minutes

    Mage insta kill? 4500 dmg, 1000 dmg, 700 dmg, aoe does 1000-1200 dmg to everyone 1.5 sec cast?
    Mage got about 7 kills in 20 seconds?

    you serious?

    were you trying to show how bad rogues are compared to mages?

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    Ascendant sanosuke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stage9 View Post
    All i saw from this video is.

    MM can't kill ****. 100-300 shot damage? 1000 damage crit with 5 combo finisher? lol
    MM got maybe 2 kills in 7 minutes

    Mage insta kill? 4500 dmg, 1000 dmg, 700 dmg, aoe does 1000-1200 dmg to everyone 1.5 sec cast?
    Mage got about 7 kills in 20 seconds?

    you serious?

    were you trying to show how bad rogues are compared to mages?
    actually yea that's exactly what i was trying to show
    Warfronts need segregation of the Tiers. 1-5 and 6-8 or pre-50 pvp will be the most enjoyable PVP in the game.
    Run and Gun My *Boomstick* MM PVP Guide
    The Night Bomber PVP Spec + Rogue PVP Guide Compilation
    Blood and Fire Sin/NB PVP Guide

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    Quote Originally Posted by sanosuke View Post
    actually yea that's exactly what i was trying to show
    thats what I thought =p

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    General of Telara Sarathor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanosuke View Post
    thats the problem the burst is what you need in pvp to get that healer down at that split second.. now they will just heal through it all and laugh at you even more than they do now... MM's need something like static barrier mages get and yea retreat just needs to be removed and something else put in its place something like flicker would be better
    Static Barrier? That knock backs the target which is in the movement CC category. You have 5 charges on the barrier, but for 1v1, it's only going to work twice, then immune will pop up for the other three.

    Not to mention it will only happen once if a Stormcaller uses any movement CC (which all CC abilities they have fall into this category). meaning, no arctic blast, hailstorm, Icy Vortex, raging storm, or the plethora of the other abilities can be used, and you're still only going to get 2/5ths of it's usefulness. Hell, even in group play static barrier is useless because more times than not the enemy will be immune.

    Static Barrier is quite useless for a stormcaller.

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    Ascendant sanosuke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarathor View Post
    Static Barrier? That knock backs the target which is in the movement CC category. You have 5 charges on the barrier, but for 1v1, it's only going to work twice, then immune will pop up for the other three.

    Not to mention it will only happen once if a Stormcaller uses any movement CC (which all CC abilities they have fall into this category). meaning, no arctic blast, hailstorm, Icy Vortex, raging storm, or the plethora of the other abilities can be used, and you're still only going to get 2/5ths of it's usefulness. Hell, even in group play static barrier is useless because more times than not the enemy will be immune.

    Static Barrier is quite useless for a stormcaller.
    same goes for any CC MM can put out or any other soul for that matter.. but in general MM "survivability" abilities are pretty much crap.. they need more than just on the double for speed since static shot never holds anyone in pvp.. retreat sucks like mentioned before and repelling shot is pretty worthless as well unless you are knocking someone off a ledge in codex... also static barrier works great vs rogues and ride the wind is up a lot more often than on the double... just saying MM doesn't do enough damage to warrant the crappy survivability they have..
    Warfronts need segregation of the Tiers. 1-5 and 6-8 or pre-50 pvp will be the most enjoyable PVP in the game.
    Run and Gun My *Boomstick* MM PVP Guide
    The Night Bomber PVP Spec + Rogue PVP Guide Compilation
    Blood and Fire Sin/NB PVP Guide

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    Retreat is quite good. I don't know why you guys are knocking it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raitoken View Post
    Retreat is quite good. I don't know why you guys are knocking it.
    cause half the time it bugs and you either go the wrong way or dont go anywhere.. it also doesnt work well on uneven ground.. id take some other form of speed increase any day or perhaps a form of break free..
    Warfronts need segregation of the Tiers. 1-5 and 6-8 or pre-50 pvp will be the most enjoyable PVP in the game.
    Run and Gun My *Boomstick* MM PVP Guide
    The Night Bomber PVP Spec + Rogue PVP Guide Compilation
    Blood and Fire Sin/NB PVP Guide

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    General of Telara Sarathor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanosuke View Post
    same goes for any CC MM can put out or any other soul for that matter.. but in general MM "survivability" abilities are pretty much crap.. they need more than just on the double for speed since static shot never holds anyone in pvp.. retreat sucks like mentioned before and repelling shot is pretty worthless as well unless you are knocking someone off a ledge in codex... also static barrier works great vs rogues and ride the wind is up a lot more often than on the double... just saying MM doesn't do enough damage to warrant the crappy survivability they have..
    Actually, ride the wind isn't that great, sure it can last longer, but it's subject to movement impairing effects, and on the double isn't when talented.

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