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Thread: [PTS Parses] Ranged Builds VS Sabdancer

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    Prophet of Telara
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    Default [PTS Parses] Ranged Builds VS Sabdancer

    Ok, these are 3-4 minute parses that I did quickly just to get a baseline idea of whats up on PTS. I am currently wearing all P7/8 PvP gear, P8 Synergy Crystal, 4 epic phys crit essences from inscribed stones, and 2 ap essences from inscribed stones. Just to make sure Blast Charge is indeed better, I did the ST test on Sabdancer with both Blast Charge and Shrapnel (as we currently do on Live). All AoE numbers are 3 targets.

    All self buffed, but did use a tablet on the Ranger builds because they are so energy starved compared to Sabdancer/MM.

    Sabdancer: ST Blast Charge: 1470, ST Shrapnel: 1216, AoE: 2719

    51MM/15Ranger ST: 1548, AoE: 2604
    46MM/20Sin ST: 1359, AoE: 2431
    38MM/28Ranger ST: 1469, AoE 2179
    39Ranger/10MM/17Sin ST:1303, AoE 1583
    51Ranger/15MM ST:1043, AoE: Didn't bother, build sucked.

    Things could change with PvE Synergy Crystals, but since most won't have them for a while, I don't think it is fair to test with them. Conclusions...

    #1: At least one MM build is comparable to Sabdancer. You lose an interrupt/silence and incriminate, but gain range. No energy starvation here. *EDIT* The AoE "rotation" is boring as hell...

    #2: Ranger as a main soul is PITIFUL. Energy starvation isn't helping the matter, but the fact is that the crappy pet does not make up for munitions in any way, shape, or form. Pets really need to scale with the player. Furthermore, the AoE sucks in comparison to other options.

    #3: Ranged builds now definitely compliment ranged builds better than melee builds.

    #4: Trion seems to be making our souls "51 or go home". While I dislike that it would hurt the creative types of builds we can create, it would probably make the game easier to balance...this is probably six one way, half a dozen the other.

    Hope this gives some perspective...
    Last edited by Calo; 09-23-2011 at 05:46 PM.

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    You don't really lose the interrupt by going marksman. Deaden is basically the same skill as weapon barrage but with more range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    You don't really lose the interrupt by going marksman. Deaden is basically the same skill as weapon barrage but with more range.
    Good catch, my mistake.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    You don't really lose the interrupt by going marksman. Deaden is basically the same skill as weapon barrage but with more range.
    and twice the energy cost and 50% longer cooldown...

    mm has a huge fall that dummy parsers wont realize till they raid with it.

    riftstalker builds have similar flaws too in raids.

    it's the reason specs like mine and sabodancer are so popular, the ability to do dmg on the run during disconnects, even if it's not as high as full melee, it is still very high and in some cases very close to max.

    mm loses what? 55% dmg bonus when it starts moving?

    having to shadowshift every 10s to keep a buff up, messes up your rotations on bosses that like to move a lot forcing you to shift early and screw your dps rotations up little by little until you end up under a boring saboteur spec or even hoko spec which btw is still competitive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    You don't really lose the interrupt by going marksman. Deaden is basically the same skill as weapon barrage but with more range.
    But longer cooldown (15 instead of 10). Already at 10s you can't reliable interrupt everything.


    Edit: Beaten by Hoko.

    But Then instead @Hoko, it only costs 10 energy in 1.5

    And it's 35% damage bonus
    Last edited by Rizz; 09-23-2011 at 06:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizz View Post
    But longer cooldown (15 instead of 10). Already at 10s you can't reliable interrupt everything.


    Edit: Beaten by Hoko.

    But Then instead @Hoko, it only costs 10 energy in 1.5

    And it's 35% damage bonus

    Deaden is now 10 energy and 10 sec. CD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizz View Post
    But longer cooldown (15 instead of 10). Already at 10s you can't reliable interrupt everything.


    Edit: Beaten by Hoko.

    But Then instead @Hoko, it only costs 10 energy in 1.5

    And it's 35% damage bonus
    MM interrupt 10s cd 9 energy cost with MM talents.

    (Gear)

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    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    havent used it on 1.5 yet, didnt notice the changes :P
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
    Marksman, Ranger, Nightblade, Blink'Blade, Asstalker, Assdancer, and finally The Hoko Spec™
    Hoko, teaching noobs the way of rogue pve until 12/20/11.

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    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokonoso View Post
    and twice the energy cost and 50% longer cooldown...

    mm has a huge fall that dummy parsers wont realize till they raid with it.

    riftstalker builds have similar flaws too in raids.

    it's the reason specs like mine and sabodancer are so popular, the ability to do dmg on the run during disconnects, even if it's not as high as full melee, it is still very high and in some cases very close to max.

    mm loses what? 55% dmg bonus when it starts moving?

    having to shadowshift every 10s to keep a buff up, messes up your rotations on bosses that like to move a lot forcing you to shift early and screw your dps rotations up little by little until you end up under a boring saboteur spec or even hoko spec which btw is still competitive.
    My Quick/Swift shot goes from 914 to 686 (crits) while moving, so that is ~25% damage that is lost off the standard shot by moving. EM damage doesn't change from moving, so ultimately it will be <25% damage that is lost by moving.

    You are able to stay out of danger easier by playing such a ranged build, and I highly doubt the dps loss generated by *slight* movements in the majority of fights will be too much to worry about. As far as the RS builds...while the parses may be nice, they were and probably never will be practical.
    Last edited by Calo; 09-23-2011 at 06:41 PM.

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    ive found the 51mm/15rng - best single target dps - with the 60 inscribe crystal im hitting 1400-1500ish self buffed with EM/SM -

    ive tried both 4 points in piercing and 2 points in Headshot -
    from what i can tell Head shot is an over all loss of dps due to - harder to manage rotation/buffs and it does like 1/2 the dmg of Dead eye. ide assume it would scale better though in a raid environment - erally will not know untill pacth is live -

    the good thing about this build are-

    - its ranged/melee
    - has an interrupt
    - very energy efficient
    solid single dps- ok aoe dps
    - synergy crystal is not a must but helps
    - can either go 4 points in piercing shot or 2 and 2 in head shot - depends on gear/raid scaling


    needs more testing in a raid environment, but i kinda like it so far
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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    This is a great thread. Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malkara View Post
    ive found the 51mm/15rng - best single target dps - with the 60 inscribe crystal im hitting 1400-1500ish self buffed with EM/SM -

    ive tried both 4 points in piercing and 2 points in Headshot -
    from what i can tell Head shot is an over all loss of dps due to - harder to manage rotation/buffs and it does like 1/2 the dmg of Dead eye. ide assume it would scale better though in a raid environment - erally will not know untill pacth is live -

    the good thing about this build are-

    - its ranged/melee
    - has an interrupt
    - very energy efficient
    solid single dps- ok aoe dps
    - synergy crystal is not a must but helps
    - can either go 4 points in piercing shot or 2 and 2 in head shot - depends on gear/raid scaling


    needs more testing in a raid environment, but i kinda like it so far
    We'll need to evaluate again whether Deadeye Shot will be worth using over Hasted/Head Shot. As far as I can tell, they get the same contribution from AP, but DE has a higher base damage value and a cast time. If this is the case, there will be an AP breaking point where Head Shot overtakes Deadeye Shot, because of the cast time, but I don't know what that is yet.

    We'll also need to figure out if wearing 4 pieces of T1 gear and the T1 synergy crystal is better than the P8 synergy crystal and the pieces of HK/P8 gear you'd have to drop to activate it. I'll probably do the legwork on that test once the patch is live. MM is one of the only souls with a useful synergy crystal and I'm looking forward to playing it.

    I gotta say that MM does look pretty dead in PvP. Maybe I'll be able to come up with something that will work, but I'm skeptical of PvP prospects. Bursting high-prestige healers/warriors is such a damn nightmare right now and nothing in 1.5 has convinced me things will be any different -- and that goes for basically any soul.

    I'm also curious about Rift Barrier recursion when 2 riftstalkers are fighting each other. My damage is reflected by his barrier, which is reflected by my barrier, which is reflected by his barrier...

    To paraphrase the Chinese curse, Rogues will live in interesting times.
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 09-24-2011 at 02:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    This is a great thread. Thank you.



    We'll need to evaluate again whether Deadeye Shot will be worth using over Hasted/Head Shot. As far as I can tell, they get the same contribution from AP, but DE has a higher base damage value and a cast time. If this is the case, there will be an AP breaking point where Head Shot overtakes Deadeye Shot, because of the cast time, but I don't know what that is yet.

    We'll also need to figure out if wearing 4 pieces of T1 gear and the T1 synergy crystal is better than the P8 synergy crystal and the pieces of HK/P8 gear you'd have to drop to activate it. I'll probably do the legwork on that test once the patch is live. MM is one of the only souls with a useful synergy crystal and I'm looking forward to playing it.

    I gotta say that MM does look pretty dead in PvP. Maybe I'll be able to come up with something that will work, but I'm skeptical of PvP prospects. Bursting high-prestige healers/warriors is such a damn nightmare right now and nothing in 1.5 has convinced me things will be any different -- and that goes for basically any soul.

    I'm also curious about Rift Barrier recursion when 2 riftstalkers are fighting each other. My damage is reflected by his barrier, which is reflected by my barrier, which is reflected by his barrier...

    To paraphrase the Chinese curse, Rogues will live in interesting times.
    Deadeye Shot scales better than Head Shot because of the extra 21% damage modifier.
    Deadeye Shot > Head Shot because of the synergy crystal. only MM finishers make ES instant.

    And MM will be nice in PvP against healers and warriors - 60% armor penetration (inf, munition, passive) helps a ton, seeing 2k+ deadeye shots against high ranks is normal.
    Last edited by Coffande; 09-24-2011 at 03:25 AM.

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    At this point, I'd rather have 51 point Marksman, Ranger, Nightblade, Blade Dancer, Assassin, and Saboteur all viable, competitive DPS options than to try to protect the model of hybridization as how you perfect a build and the result being that every has to sab and/or deadly dance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greywing View Post
    At this point, I'd rather have 51 point Marksman, Ranger, Nightblade, Blade Dancer, Assassin, and Saboteur all viable, competitive DPS options than to try to protect the model of hybridization as how you perfect a build and the result being that every has to sab and/or deadly dance.
    That's so 1.3.

    There are already other options. Looking at the OP's post, there's no parses or links to specs/rotations. He's already listed other builds that parse higher then sabdancer... It's like the guy who did 1 minute parses, like he quickly speced and tested out builds and jumped to the next one. It takes at least 3 hours to try out a build to see how it performs and make the appropriate tweaks. Plus the OP does not have the synergy crystal.

    Another issue might be gear - everyone's been itemizing for sabdancer and trying different builds without the appropriate gear. Give it a couple of weeks and testing and if sab gets nerfed - it will be the dead build, not the others. Come 1.5 even the T1 raid set will have the 2 piece HK bonus - and that's all you need to outparse sabdancer in a lot of builds.
    Last edited by Mayi; 09-24-2011 at 04:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayi View Post
    That's so 1.3.

    There are already other options. Looking at the OP's post, there's no parses or links to specs/rotations. He's already listed other builds that parse higher then sabdancer... It's like the guy who did 1 minute parses, like he quickly speced and tested out builds and jumped to the next one. It takes at least 3 hours to try out a build to see how it performs and make the appropriate tweaks. Plus the OP does not have the synergy crystal.

    Another issue might be gear - everyone's been itemizing for sabdancer and trying different builds without the appropriate gear. Give it a couple of weeks and testing and if sab gets nerfed - it will be the dead build, not the others. Come 1.5 even the T1 raid set will have the 2 piece HK bonus - and that's all you need to outparse sabdancer in a lot of builds.
    No there are no parses/links, because I didn't have time for that. These tests were for ME to come up with conclusions - and I offered the information to those who have even less time than me and care. You can doubt my intentions or data if you want, it is your prerogative, but I have no reason to lie. As I said, durations were 3-4 minutes. There is not energy starvation, and these builds don't rely on the 2-minute CD's that Sabdancer does, which means that statistically they plateau much faster. It isn't hard to figure out optimal rotations for the majority of builds, so I'm honestly not even sure where you were going with that...

    As far as the Synergy crystal - I wouldn't test with it if I had it. Frankly, I think all of these people doing their tests in HK gear with the HK crystal are doing us a disservice. They are posting uber-high DPS and it is making it look like we'll be OP...just like every other class would be with that kind of gear. Most of us wont' have that for a while, and some never will. The ones who are using all Raid T1 Gear/T1 Crystal are more spot on at least. Still, testing with the gear we are using on LIVE is the only way we can say for sure how the situation compares to where we are right now.

    Unless it is nerfed, I doubt Sabdancer will die. Some people like it. Some guilds will request it of at least one Rogue for Incriminate.
    Last edited by Calo; 09-24-2011 at 06:56 AM.

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