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Thread: Assassin, PTR Changes and an average rogue...

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Assassin, PTR Changes and an average rogue...

    Hello everyone,

    since this is the time were we rogues get adjusted to bring us in line with the rest of the classes, i thought to make a post with my thoughts on the class in general and assassin in particular since that's the speck i seem to be having the most fun with.

    First things first, a little bit about myself... in contrast to most rogues, i'm not good at all. I had to try very hard and play a lot to reach rank 8 and become the average rogue i am today. I don't do anything amazing or spectacular in the field, instead i'm as average as they come. On a bad day, i totally suck. So keep this in mind when you're reading the post.

    Since i'm a pvp'er and all i ever do is pvp here is a breakdown of the assassin speck i'm using in pvp along with my stats.

    51Ass/15Inf/0Rngr
    Health - 6457
    Valor - 1084 (43.4% damage reduction)
    AP - 596
    Physical Crit - 598 (41.32%)
    All of rank 7, all of rank 6, weapons for rank 8, synergy crystal for rank 7

    Apart from my rogue, i've also have a rank 6 warrior, a rank 6 cleric and a rank 2 mage, all before the introduction of ranks 7 and 8, at which point i've decided that i like the rogue playstyle better. So there you have it folks this is my pvp experience.

    Ok, so this is how i am, moving on to what i think (always from the perspective of the assassin speck).

    First of all, i think it's great that trion recognised the need for rogue adjustments cause the situation was pretty darn bad. My whole rogue experience can be divided into pre rank 8 weapons and after rank 8 weapons. Cause that was the single thing that made the most difference in my experience with the rogue. Before rank 8 weapons, using rank 6 weapons in the field was bad. Very bad. With full rank 6 gear i'd pop up behind a healing cleric or mage and the damage output would be so low that they wouldn't even bother detaunting me. And yes i know they were probably cross healed via aoe healing, or something like that, but the experience remained the same. I'd pop out, stab stab stab, nothing happened and then i'd slip away when a warrior who just happened to notice me, got me down to about 25% life. On occassion i'd spot a stray injured guy, or i'd incapacite one from a passing group, and then away from everyone else i'd get to try to perform a kill. Most times i'd manage to pull it off. With warriors i'd have to use slip away aggressively, first to spam him with expose weakness till my dots run off, and then reapply an opener and hope for the best. During that time i had to be lucky so he won't pop a pot, get a random heal from someone or worse yet use up the 10 minute cooldown some paladin builds have.

    Avatar of the rift was also a big problem for me. Once i tried killing an afk guy with that buff on him. He had about 6k life, and while he was standing there avatar of the rift managed to get me to 65% health before he was dead. Ouch. After that i started to avoid warriors altogether, especially if i saw they had a shield, or gear around rank 6. Unless i had slip away in which case i'd give it a go.

    Without slip away and with diminishing returns on, i'd have trouble keeping me close enough to the target so my attacks connect. People would bunny hop around, sudenly change directions, using skills that either remove me from their presence (like crushing wave or even fear) or skills that would remove them from my presence (like the pyro blink for example). During those times, snaring them would be hard if not imposible (either due to diminishing returns making 'em immune, or during to their abilities to break my snare) and then the kiting would start. That was the time to hit slip away for me. If i had gotten carried away and dared hit someone without slip away up, that kitting usually ment the death of me (unless i got lucky and a healer passed by and threw a heal on me).

    I think the times that i felt most useless and powerless however would have to be the skirmishes between groups of ppl. I always felt that i died too fast to be able to kill anything or at least contribute to a meaningfull way to my team. Healers tend to ignore the rogues (and i don't blame them, they heal the most valuable targets first and the rest we get whatever the aoe heal gives). So no popping up inside groups of ppl, no popping up behind 'em also cause the smart ones would just run into their group of fellow pvp'ers, a warrior would notice and it would be slip away time again.

    So I had to adapt my playstyle. Realising that i was no good to my team by pure damage, i tried to focus more on usefullness via other means. In codex i'd go to cap enemy flags (always dependant on slip away and hidden veil for survival), harass the enemy by incapaciating them, talking to them and prompting them to find me and kill me in /say keeping 2 ppl busy looking for me instead of going to help their team, killing the strays that went to a corner to have some melange... stuff like that. And yet, i can't shake that feeling that i have, that had my team had another from any other calling, they'd be better off.

    Some of the above changed with me getting hold of my rank 8 weapons. The damage output went up and that helped quite a bit with all my troubles. I can now kill rank4 ppl, if they're not carefull, fast enough and then slip away before that warrior gets me. I have better chances against warriors now, occasionaly i manage to kill some without using slip away aggressively which is great. And now ppl feel i do enough damage to them to at least detaunt me while they proceed to heal everyone else. On occassion if i don't get carried away, but patiently wait for a guy to get low on life i can pop up inside a skirmish and finish him off and then slip away. Rank 7 gear helped alot with my health pool also so now i can survive long enough to have time to hit slip away. But the situation remains the same in its core. Don't get me wrong, it got better, quite a lot better with the rank 8 weapons, but it didn't change in its nature. I'm still depending on slip away, i still have to monitor my health pool closely to hit that slip away. I still have to hide not because i'm taking my time and picking my targets but because slip away isn't up and i don't want to feed the other side. I still feel like i'm not contributing as some of the other classes.

    And this have been so far my experience with the assassin tree. Looking into the proposed changes for assassin in the ptr my first gut reaction to them is... is that all? I'm no pro theorycrafter and i could of course be completely wrong in my assessment of the handed buffs but they feel so underwhelming. Was just a bit of extra damage via poisons what was needed to bring us up to par with the threat lvls of a warrior? I like the goals, more upfront damage would be nice, less reliance on super long dots, better poisons. But the most important, slip away should not be a requirement to compete.

    Poisons no longer triger damage shield effects. Avatar of the rift would no longer get me to 65% health? Awesome.

    Banefull touch now a buff. A good change, very rarelly had the time to apply the banefull touch finisher so that would surelly help. Scalling poisons to attack power could also be potentially great too, depending on how much they actually scale.

    Leeching poison increased healing, that's nice too, at least for doing my daily quests in the world. But in all honesty, the healing during my short pvp engagements wasn't what tipped the scales, and even if you doubled that, it still wouldn't tip 'em. So i'm not sure how much of a buff that would actually be from a pure pvp perspective.

    Enduring brew change i honestly can say i don't like it. I think it achieves nothing. It used to heal me for 450 (-dot damage) once every 15 seconds and now in the ptr it heals me for about 1k. What is the worth of a 1k heal... that's one devouring shadows tick (crit), one extra hit from a warrior... on a one minute cooldown. Somehow it doesn't feel that strong. Or needed.

    Backstab. What can i say about this. It's a skill one has to spend 16 points into the assassin tree to get it, and you spend a total of 3 talent points to make it what it is, 1 talent point to get it, and 2 to give it an extra 6% crit chance. It has a positional requirement and it's on a 6 second cooldown. Atm at live i crit for about 300 with this ability. In the ptr i cri for about 350 to 380. I feel this should change, assassins need more burst and this ability should be the one that could provide some of it. 350 damage isn't burst, it's a dot tick (although i wish it was like one of those 1k ticks that devouring shadows do). I think it should do more like 800 damage on crit for it to be usefull. If need be increase the cooldown, but make it something worth getting. So 50% damage bonus i think is not enough.

    Assassinate. Good change, haven't tested it enough to say if it's a valid competitor for jagged strike yet. Hope that it is.

    Exposed Weakness. Nice of you to give it a bit of ap scaling, on the ptr with my gear it went from 16 points per stack to 45 points per stack. That's almost 600 extra damage provided the target uses up all the stacks. On the other hand, no keeping ppl in combat by spaming it, so no more doting that warrior up and then waiting for the dots to run their course. I'm not sure if the new expose weakeness will keep 'em in combat for the full 20 second duration, but even if it does since our dots got trimmed down this strategy is now out of the table. And i wonder if the extra 600 points from this skill along with the bigger ticks would provide us with a number that's bigger than our old dots + expose weakness. So not sure yet if this is a buff or not yet.

    Slip Away change. Pointless... the good rogues used it to sometimes make themselves immune to traveling damage, like a deadeye shot comming their way or a cluster of voidbolts from the split personalities of a dominator. The average rogue will just have to slip away a bit earlier now to account for the damage the he'll be taking from all the aoes that will be comming his way. I feel like instead of making me less reliant on it, you just made me use it a bit earlier than before. Other than that no meaningfull change was made.

    Cut and Run - another break free. That's nice i guess. But in its current form it can't replace break free (no immunity), and it doesn't help with our bigest problem which is kitting. All the enemy has to do is get some distance between us and them and all we're reduced to doing is pepper them with quick shots from the ranger tree. I would have prefered something better like a ranged snare, a small speed increase or some proper break free functionallity so that we could potentially seek our mobility from other souls like bd or riftstalker.

    Final thoughts. I disagree with the direction the assassin changes take us. I think trion needs to decide how we'll go about dealing our damage, either make us a complete dot class, or a burst class all together. And if you're so bent up on buffing poisons, at least make 'em interesting and imporant. Atm i feel our poisons lack specialisation. They feel so generic for some reason. It would be great if assassins had access to a wide variety of poisons that performed different funtions and choosing which ones to use had an impact on our playstyle and effectiveness... Hell i'd even love it if we could mix 2 different poisons together to make up a new one that shared qualities of the first 2.

    In any case, thank you for your time and I hope you survived the huge Wall of text.

    take care

    Naarah of Bloodiron

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    Big Wall of Text crits you for over 9000!
    You Die.

    Someone chime in if it's worth reading, if so I will, but it is just soo long!!!!
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
    Marksman, Ranger, Nightblade, Blink'Blade, Asstalker, Assdancer, and finally The Hoko Spec™
    Hoko, teaching noobs the way of rogue pve until 12/20/11.

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokonoso View Post
    Big Wall of Text crits you for over 9000!
    You Die.

    Someone chime in if it's worth reading, if so I will, but it is just soo long!!!!
    It's an elaborate qq post about her blight with the assassin soul and her need for the devs to tell her that 1.5 is indeed a buff...

  4. #4
    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PorceleinEve View Post
    It's an elaborate qq post about her blight with the assassin soul and her need for the devs to tell her that 1.5 is indeed a buff...
    well i can help by saying, yes it is a buff. sins are kings of 1 v 1, there is a sin build out there that can counter every other build out there when opening from stealth, i think that was the goal and they succeeded (right now my warrior can wait for a sin to open then turn and kill it in 3 gcds).

    p.s. nb/rs still better for pvp.
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
    Marksman, Ranger, Nightblade, Blink'Blade, Asstalker, Assdancer, and finally The Hoko Spec™
    Hoko, teaching noobs the way of rogue pve until 12/20/11.

  5. #5
    Telaran
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    I thought it was a reasonable post, pointing out an average pvp day in the life of a 51/15/0 sin/inf/rng. I didn't get the QQ so much as a decent accounting of all the particular challenges this particular build has in PvP. A bit long, yes, but reasonable post IMO.

  6. #6
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokonoso View Post
    Big Wall of Text crits you for over 9000!
    You Die.

    Someone chime in if it's worth reading, if so I will, but it is just soo long!!!!
    Did you finish grade school? Pick up a book or hell a magazine and read sometime.

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    This post felt like I was reading about my normal day whenever I'm playing in my sin role (except i'm "almost" r6, so I do even less damage lol). I was looking forward to getting some pvp in when I got home but after reading and realizing that nothing changes....who knows, my warrior is lvl 16 now

  8. #8
    Plane Touched
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    I Definitely read the whole post and it is on par with what a true sin spec experience.
    All I can say is I tested the changes on test and its definitely a buff in damage and survival.
    I think we are now in pretty decent shape, it took 6 months but for those of us who stuck with our rogue from day 1 and gotten better and skilled it will seem op to the other people who just bounce around playing fotm classes .
    The jack of all will definitely QQ. But I think overall we are pretty good now.
    Last edited by Stabsalot; 09-21-2011 at 03:45 PM.

  9. #9
    Plane Touched Skaleek's Avatar
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    This sums up my experience tonight, actually, ridiculously frustrated. Had to sit up, take a breath, and walk away from rift. Rank 6 stuff. Her post is the best I've seen on the 1.5 changes so far. People are screaming OP OP nerf, im looking at the changes and thinking to myself: This is peanuts....
    Last edited by Skaleek; 09-21-2011 at 10:49 PM.

  10. #10
    Shadowlander Errand's Avatar
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    Worth the read and the bump.

    One of the key issues aside from the added dps for Assassins is the mobility.Unless that is changed, I will most likely never waver from my Riftstalker/Sin build due to the added mobility given with the Riftstalker soul.

    DPS can be raised, but if you cannot stay within DPS range its pointless. So your options are to take riftstalker as an Assassin and load up on the dots as best as you can.They say a dead rogues DPS is 0 in PVE, well a live rogue being kited in PVP isn't much different. Untill Assassins mobility is addressed, Riftstalker will be a must for Assassins.

    -Rank 6 Rogue
    Rank 8 Defiant Rogue

    Alsbeth Server


  11. #11
    Telaran
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    I thought this was a great post. It is very nice to see someone post an experience with out attempting to boost their own ego with kill counts. I am an average player who plays maybe 15 hours a week if im lucky. I have a R4 rogue and only PvP and do rift events. So for me this was was very realistic and accurate compared to my experiences. I like playing the Sin, it seems more like a rogue in my mind then just about any other calling. Im less focused on who is uber DPS then I am about what is fun. Sadly hitting 50 has just make the game a not so happy place for Sins. I really hope 1.5 changes this but then again SWTOR is coming out soon.

    Great post PorceleinEve

  12. #12
    aux
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    Quote Originally Posted by PorceleinEve View Post
    in contrast to most rogues, i'm not good at all.
    lol


    ----
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    I'm so BORED

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