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Thread: Rogue first impressions from a noob

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Rogue first impressions from a noob

    tldr; Overall I think Rogues are fine so far for my casual play style. I'm not sure what all the QQ is about. Is it only QQ from hardcore players? I don't want to downplay the QQ, but I just dont understand it. Please, tell me what I can expect to change as I progress. Will PvE be bad or will PvP?

    This is what I've seen so far.

    Well, I've been playing this game for under 2 months. Just got my first character to 50, a rogue. Got him to 50 on Friday. And to Prestige 2 on Saturday. Here is how I play him.

    PvE: I leveled up doing 90% dungeons. I was annoyed with queue times early on as I started as a DPS rogue. So then I switched to bard and my queue times dropped tremendously! 90% of the games I was bard and the other 10% I was sabo DPS spec.
    I got to 50 and I skipped over T1. I've done a couple of T2s. One as bard and one as sabatour. But the bard game, I went sab for thrash pulls and only bard for boss pulls. The tank had a DPS parser and said I was #1 for most pulls that involved aoe. And within 100-200 dps on single targets. So not bad at all for a fresh 50 with mostly lvl 43-48 blues.
    In the future I'll probably play mostly DPS rogue, since pve queues are much faster now. I see no problem in being #1 dps for t2 and master mode dungeons.

    PvP: Leveling up, PvP as a bard was phenomenal. Almost always #1 healer and a winning record when I played solo. When I played with a warrior friend, we won about 90% of the time.
    So then at 50, I had enough favor able to afford the P1 items and had I think about 350 valor to start with. The next day I was P2 and had 851 valor. 90% of this weekend I played port scion since that was the weekend bonus. Each game I started out as bard and healed at dragon then church. Then I switch to my rogue pvp spec. Which is my own unique riftstalker/assasin/iniltrator. Please feel free to critique it.

    In port scion or even whitefalls, my PvP build basically allows me to be stealthed forever, avoiding the enemy and waiting for the shards to appear and then being able to run them. For any warfront, it allows me to pick and chose my fights. Lets say I see a warrior with low health. I stealth in and beat him down. If he is beating me, I just slip away and heal up for my next victim. Hidden veil is down and I have a bleed? Its ok, I use a plane shift and wait for stealth. He charges me? Its ok, I have another plane shift. I am feared, its okay, I have break free. Oh yeah, I have blind too for that other enemy who came to help his bud.
    But all the QQ is right that fighting an equally geared class 1v1, with a good amount of health/mana will always lead to me dying or running away. I think that is fine, because warfronts are not 1v1. There are plenty of victims to pick on. And once I get my prestige rank up, It'll be easy to pick on fresh 50s.

    This is how I envision the rogue. A low down, dirty and cheating fighter. Always fighting when its easy and the kill is all but guaranteed. And being able to run away if he decides the fight is not worth it anymore.

    So why all the QQ about rogues? Is it just because if I fight a healer or support I'll die and they will have 100% health? I am fine with that, we need people playing those classes. And this game really isn't about duels.

    My only complaint really is about rogue poisions. For example, I think there should be a healing debuff poison. Not enough to allow a rogue to kill a healer, but enough to make healers worry about their position. So if enemy warrior over extends, the healer can't come to his rescue for fear of being debuffed and burned down. Also, I think warrior/healer and multiple warrior synergy is a bit too high. I'm not sure how to fix this, I think warriors just have too much utility. Allowing them to overextend and live and often times destroy people. Their DPS is fine, just reduce some of their cc or utility. So that if they go into a group of 10 enemies just for 1 kill, they may still get it, but no way are they getting out of their alive.


    Okay enough with my rant. I am off to play my level 18 warrior alt. Why? Because I am a low life dirty cheater. I don't QQ about the system, I beat the system. Plus guardian has way too many rogues.

  2. #2
    Plane Walker Alder's Avatar
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    Why would a team want someone that spends 80% of their time in stealth while looking for that 1 perfect low health target to bring down, when you can just have a warrior that kills 10 people in the time it takes Slip Away to come off CD?

    This is not only a problem with rogues but an issue that's not being helped with the small warfront maps that encourages zergs.

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    Ascendant Adnoz's Avatar
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    So you're saying you spend 80% of your time invisible being completely useless to your team, and you think this is fine?
    You're right, these /are/ first impressions from a noob.

    (Gear)

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    Plane Touched Malupit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adnoz View Post
    So you're saying you spend 80% of your time invisible being completely useless to your team, and you think this is fine?
    You're right, these /are/ first impressions from a noob.
    Either you are stealth or you're dead. Either way, The dps adds up next to nothing. Unless you're one of those rogues that support, then numbers on other parts of the board matters. (always top 5 healing done)

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alder View Post
    Why would a team want someone that spends 80% of their time in stealth while looking for that 1 perfect low health target to bring down, when you can just have a warrior that kills 10 people in the time it takes Slip Away to come off CD?

    This is not only a problem with rogues but an issue that's not being helped with the small warfront maps that encourages zergs.
    Like I said, I think warriors could use a little less CC. They should not be able to manhandle 10 people. But that doesn't mean rogues should be able to manhandle 10 people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adnoz View Post
    So you're saying you spend 80% of your time invisible being completely useless to your team, and you think this is fine?
    You're right, these /are/ first impressions from a noob.
    I never said that The QQ is strong with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malupit View Post
    Either you are stealth or you're dead. Either way, The dps adds up next to nothing. Unless you're one of those rogues that support, then numbers on other parts of the board matters. (always top 5 healing done)
    There are plenty of targets to attack. Stealth, attack, come out, stealth , attack, come out.. rinse and repeat.Are you just a stationary rogue and expecting heals to keep you up against a zerg??? I think you guys want to play a warrior.

    You don't need to be #1 dps as a rogue, just disable or kill the right targets. The problem is when there is too many rogues, your team comp is weak to the zerg. So the solution is just to turn on bard during the zerg. But wait, let me guess, you guys don't use bard in PvP?
    Last edited by TasRift; 09-19-2011 at 09:58 AM.

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple
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    I fully support your game style in pvp. After all it is you who are playing. I fully intend to follow what you have done.
    Sorry, the worst Assassian ever to play any game anywhere.

  7. #7
    Shadowlander
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    I personally think his play style is fine as an Assassin. I don't like that play style so I use different spec for PVP. I go charge in like a warrior and survive and kill . I can't do rush dps like warrior but I can assist and make warrior in my team kill faster by putting healing debuff and DoT on the opposite team. War Front is not about 1 to 1. It's about team work.
    Assassin can stay in stealth and deal damage to stone runner so the stone would drop and then slip away(back to stealth). We need those pesky annoying assassin in our team.

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky Assassian View Post
    I fully support your game style in pvp. After all it is you who are playing. I fully intend to follow what you have done.
    Do whatever it takes to win!

    Quote Originally Posted by SamayouSamurai View Post
    I personally think his play style is fine as an Assassin. I don't like that play style so I use different spec for PVP. I go charge in like a warrior and survive and kill . I can't do rush dps like warrior but I can assist and make warrior in my team kill faster by putting healing debuff and DoT on the opposite team. War Front is not about 1 to 1. It's about team work.
    Assassin can stay in stealth and deal damage to stone runner so the stone would drop and then slip away(back to stealth). We need those pesky annoying assassin in our team.
    Yes assassins are needed but not 3/4 of the team! Its fine to have a different playstyle like yours. It may even work for you well if you get an organized team. But if your playstyle doesn't work, people need to adapt instead of QQ.

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple
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    Well when reading gover what the Rogue souls do, I liked the Assassian soul. It may not be best for pve or pvp, but I am going to play it no matter who says they suck and should no be used. I play for fun, and I like to sit back and wait for my kills. That is what an Assassian does! If I go in a game with only 2 or 3 kills or none, and only 2 k dps total, so what. I was not aware that we we were playing to impress some nerd. I like my Rogue and will continue to play terribad. I am not going to adapt to yours, or anyones so called style. If it does not work as it should, change the souls meaning, or bring it to where it should be.
    Sorry, the worst Assassian ever to play any game anywhere.

  10. #10
    Plane Walker Alder's Avatar
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    While it is fantastic for open world PVP, it's a selfish build for team PVP. I personally don't care what i have to play, i want to win. Do i have my preferences? Sure, but i'm not going to waste my teams time being stubborn.

  11. #11
    Sword of Telara Valavus's Avatar
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    Duskedge is my PvP toon on Deepstrike, I had your mentality when I started OP, but you haven't tried barding, you really should! Killing a random non-warrior/cleric stone runner every 2 mins just doesn't stack up to the fun of popping Guardian Phase and Planar Refuge while you take focus fire from 3 cabs and a warrior while keeping your whole zerg above 80% and buffed. I usually feel sad when I pop out of the WF, and am forced to slink around for the next pop. I think the largest factor is how useless Sin is until R6+, I swear..it's like I'm giving people shoulder massages 90% of the time.
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  12. #12
    Sword of Telara Valavus's Avatar
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    Phone's Internet bugged out..I just re-read your post. WTH would you STOP barding? Being useful just not fun for you?
    Lasthope - Cleric
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  13. #13
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    OP's correct - rogue isn't that bad, though here are the issues:

    PvP

    1. As an assassin I do fine against warriors and clerics 1v1, against mages it's more difficult with a good mage with equal gear being able to destroy me. My gear is good - in a game where gear means so much - so I can only imagine that this is why I do so well...

    2. A lot of the souls are poor in pvp, and people may like a gameplay style that gets destroyed in pvp and instead of adapting they qq.

    3. As a bard you get focused and heavy riftstalker is almost required but it kills your healing. I play 51 bard when I do bard because I don't have enough roles for pvp and raiding. I take 51 assassin for my one pvp soul and devote the rest to raiding, where I feel I could use more if I had them. Anyways, as a bard I SHOULD be the number 1 target and against competent teams I'll die pretty frequently.

    4. We seem to be itemized for very low health, with rank 6 gear I'm 5200 self buffed. Compare this to warriors and mages running around with 8k health and it causes issues. I could take bard in my build to buff my health but as an assassin I depend on burst to take clerics and mages down. If I spec for survivability then any self healing build will destroy me.

    These are my issues at least, but they aren't major. I think as a low renown ranked rogue you're playing your class perfectly, ignore the qq. I've had warfronts where if I dps then we lack healing, and if I heal we lack PKs. As you gear up you'll be a lot more effective in a dps spec and be able to dish out some serious damage.

    PvE

    1. We are again itemized for very low health, I've noticed more rogues die to aoes and mechanics then other classes. A low health pool means less margin of error. Before some smart assed remark about me dying to mechanics, this is something I've noticed in OTHERS. People want to play the spec that does the most dps and take risks to do more dps when it isn't necessary, so some of these issues are player issues but low health pool hurts.

    2. Sicaron - noobs will be noobs... there's an encounter in HK where you get a damage buff that doesn't not scale well for rogues and scales very well for warriors. The effect is on this single target encounter warriors parse 500-600 dps higher then rogues (though that's dropped) and imagine players run to the forums after the encounter and qq about single target rogue dps. Otherwise there really isn't a good benchmark to compare single target dps in T2 raids besides Murdantex, where rogues are every bit on par with warriors.

    3. Lack of variety of specs. Sabdancer is the best single target and aoe dps spec for rogues, so people see it as the required spec on every encounter. The spec highlights other issues with rogues - 0 survivability support like blinks, low health pool, no damage invulnerability. Even though you can clear the first level of HK with 19 people (yes it's been done) people want to eek out that extra 200 dps and I see them die over and over again in encounters where the spec isn't that strong.

    In regards to 1.5 changes, on test it looks to be addressing most of the issues with pve. With pvp I haven't bothered testing anything but the changes look good... I prefer to test in game with pvp changes. My only concern over 1.5 atm is a reduction in some aoe abilities amongst the souls to favor single target dps. Shrapnel's change and Weapon Flare change where we might gain in single target dps and lose out on aoe, which would not be a good change.

    Anyways, if you look at the mage forums, it's all qq, if you look at the cleric forums, it's all qq, if you look at the warrior forums... hell even they complain. Forums are mostly about QQing these days, and the people who think something's overpowered aren't stupid and hold their tongues. Overall I think we're on the underpowered side and 1.5 should help.
    Last edited by Mayi; 09-19-2011 at 01:24 PM.

  14. #14
    Champion TiberiusMonkey's Avatar
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    Basically what everyone has said here I agree with, the "Rogues are fine" people ignore that point over and over again, for every moment we're in stealth a Warrior is out there hammering down their back line and doing your job, and on top of that when we do leave stealth our damage doesn't come close to a PVP Warrior.

    Meaning that, as good as some might be with Rogues you'll always be more valuable to a team playing a Warrior instead. I still have yet to hear a decent counter point to that argument from the small "u r just bad, we r teh good" group.
    Last edited by TiberiusMonkey; 09-19-2011 at 01:26 PM.

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    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiusMonkey View Post
    Basically what everyone has said here I agree with, the "Rogues are fine" people ignore that point over and over again, for every moment we're in stealth a Warrior is out there hammering down their back line and doing your job, and on top of that when we do leave stealth our damage doesn't come close to a PVP Warrior.

    Meaning that, as good as some might be with Rogues you'll always be more valuable to a team playing a Warrior instead. I still have yet to hear a decent counter point to that argument from the small "u r just bad, we r teh good" group.
    I agree but I think people are talking about different contexts. You're talking about the context of where you're in a brawl in a warfront, like say fighting over codex. You're 100% right there, rogues have no good soul combination for brawls. You can do equivalent dps to a warrior and their survivability is leaps and bounds ahead.

    Here's how I've adjusted.

    Black garden - play sab if you have good healers, otherwise I switch to assassin or bard.
    Codex - assasin and camp the vault. If I'm going after codex attack healers out of stealth or get up on the cliff and attack their casters/healers.
    Whitefall - marksman is best, but I don't have the role. I play bard and sometimes sab depending on context.
    Port Scion - if defending or attacking the bridge I play sab. I'll also camp stones in the church as assassin. I'll sometimes bard but rarely.

    I've adjusted and do fine, but it would be good to have a good dps, high survivability gritty brawler type of pvp soul to play like a warrior... but then again, if that's your style of play maybe a warrior would be better suited for you. Then again 1.5 is coming up and that style of play might be available.
    Last edited by Mayi; 09-19-2011 at 01:47 PM.

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