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Thread: Riftstalker suggestions - hopefully read before 1.5

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    Rift Master McWaffles's Avatar
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    Default Riftstalker suggestions - hopefully read before 1.5

    So, I have actually rogue tanked in HK, too bad all i'm fit for is trash. Even with the new updates, we still have less physical mitigation than ANY other tank purely from their armor (a warrior's shield has as much armor as a rogue in guardian phase), as well as block absorbing a greater amount of overall damage than rift guard, considering with talents many warriors are getting 65% block with at least that much damage reduction after talents, and .65 x .65 = .4225, or 42.25%, which is greater than the current max of 31.5% damage reduction rogues get from rift guard. On top of that, most warriors and clerics that tank have higher combined dodge and parry percentages than rogue tanks after talents, esp. considering raid buffs, which clerics scale with best due to mitigation from SP. I do not see how this makes sense as rogues have 2 weapons to parry with, versus one, and are labeled by Trion as, "The highly mobile soul." Also, 1.5 doesn't even begin to address the issue of rogue tanks having NO raid utility, since we cannot purge, interrupt, do not provide raid dps like warriors, and do not provide raid heals like clerics. While rogues DO have more non-physical mitigation than clerics, we DO NOT have more non-physical mitigation than warriors, either in 51VK or the ultimate mitigation spec. Also, due to the complete lack of effective earth, death, and limited other essences for rogue tanks, we can not build pure resist source engines without getting literally useless stats such as wisdom and block. While Trion has STARTED to address issues, they addressed the wrong ones. I had no issues with most AoE aggro, our true issues that prevent us from being viable HK tanks (being actually progression, HK is all that really matter at the moment, as well as other T2 raids) are lack of mitigation(due to not scaling) and lack of raid utility.

    MY SUGGESTIONS:
    1) Trion made Riftstalker synergize with other souls better. now make other souls synergize with riftstalker better. Bladedancer is currently (IMO) our best synergy because of the mitigation increase, but the new added damage reduction after parry/dodge is available AFTER 15 points have been spent in bladedancer. Switch the places of "Turn the Tide" and "Strike Back." This will allow riftstalkers to gain access to a mitigation talent without sacrificing a key CD and mitigation/hp from losing points in riftstalker. the 2 point talent would require 17BD to get, meaning you could not be a 51pt Riftstalker, currently essential.

    2) Increase the soft and hard caps on dodge/parry for rogue tanks, allowing us to actually be a mitigation tank without needing block. This could be added in as a specific recalculation for the soul once x amount of points are in the class, or an added effect to guardian phase increasing dodge and parry by an additional x% per x points of dodge/parry, capping at a % of the current dodge/parry caps. (50% or so of the current caps)


    3) Because we have so much for attack power in the soul, why not make use of it since 51pts is required? Much as cleric tanks benefit from spell power, increase the dodge and parry of rogue tanks by .75 of their attack power. This in conjunction with #2 would truly make us an actual mitigation tank. Clerics would still receive an overall larger amount to their mitigations, gaining to 3 different stats and with SP much more readily available (200 from powerstone, over 300 from HK 1h weapon [and let's face it, this is about rogues not being able to tank HK and beyond]).

    4) Make Rift Guard scale with armor. Why armor? Because armor is the one thing guaranteed to increase with each new rank of gear, meaning that no matter how stats change over time, this is a permanent fix to make us scale over time.

    5) Increase Riftstalker armor by 1 point per 1 point of dexterity. This would not be major, but would help.

    6) We NEED raid utility. Planar switch is NOT useless, but it is limited and IMO a waste of a 31 pt. ability. It also is counterproductive in situations since Rift Scavenge would not activate if there were no combo points left on a dying target. Instead, replace this with a purge. Rift Prison has such limited application, even when it may be effective it's often ignored. replace Rift prison with an interrupt. This would put us SLIGHTLY on track with other tanks in ways of raid utility.

    7) To tie into our NEED for raid utility, since warriors increase raid dps, clerics have a battle rez and raid healing, Riftstalker lore puts us as protective. So why not spread shields to other raid members? Well, that would often be incredibly overpowered (but so is Spotter's Order). Instead, give Riftstalkers a raid cleanse as a 36 pt. root ability and a single target "attunement" to one other player reducing the damage they receive by 15% and the threat they generate by 50% as a 38 pt. root ability, still limiting them to a rogue tank, meaning a dps would have to gimp themselves to get it (just like a non-tank warrior for SO), as well as preventing the damage reduction from being used on another tank, unless you plan on them losing aggro.

    8) Our abilities our currently rather poorly written. Toughened Soul, Guardian Phase, and guarded steel all currently increase only our base armor. Instead, add an order of operations to how they apply. Have toughened soul FIRST increase our BASE ARMOR, then have Guardian Phase increase our armor by 50% OF OUR BASE ARMOR (scales off Toughened Soul), then have Guarded Soul increase our armor by a % of our TOTAL armor (scaling off Guardian Phase's bonus too). After this, THEN make items such as the primordial Faeshard that increase armor by a % increase armor based off of the TOTAL armor, meaning it will be useful to rogues and clerics for more than just threat generation.

    9) Itemization is an issue, but to add a whole new series of items for one calling is dumb IMO. Guilds already are sick of seeing constant off-spec drops. The main issue with itemization for Riftstalkers is the lack of appropriate essences for stacking one particular type of resistance. This is not an issues for clerics or warriors. I have 2 possible ideas for this:
    Idea A: Create an NPC for each faction that is able to alter essences from being attuned to one element to be attuned to a different element. (I.E. Flowing River could be changed from a water resist essence to a death resist essence) This would be for a cost, of course, such as planarite and crystal sourcestone, adding a use for crystal sourcestone to progressed characters. For defiant, this could lie in technology, where as for Guardians it could lie in a miracle of the Gods. (I.E. a savant with elemental powers such as the ******ed dwarf from Dragon Age games) This could benefit EVERYONE, and not just riftstalkers.
    Idea B: Give riftstalkers a new buff in place of Improved Guarded Steel called Incorporeal Target that while in Guardian Phase increases threat generation by 20/40% and reduces incoming spell damage of one element by .5/1% and increasing the chance to resist spells of that element by .25/.5% each time you are struck by spells of that element for 10 seconds, stacking up to 15 times. This essentially imitates gaining around 90 resist OVER TIME for any element you are currently being attacked by. While in Stalker Phase, have it reduce threat generated and grant 10/20% armor penetration to physical abilities, seeing as how an incorporeal weapon would phase right through material items(armor).

    These are my proposed changes to keep Riftstalker in line as a viable tank without changing Trion's ideas of what the soul should be/do or making it overpowered. The only other suggestion i can make is for Trion dev's to attempt to complete their own instance (HkF) using a Riftstalker as the main tank and a cleric as the off tank, then vice versa, then with warrior tanks at all times using gear equivalent to what players attempting those bosses would have. I.E. for Murdantix they would start with Raid T1 gear. Maybe then they would see the difference they created. I can not begin to create a post to help fix cleric tanks as well, since i do not have enough experience playing one myself, but it does need to happen to allow them to tank hybrid cast/physical bosses.

    Posted on PTS forums too, figure it would be better to get comments out of rogues as well as putting it somewhere likely for Trion dev's to see it...
    "You're just realizing the fault of your species, human beings are the most untrustworthy, backstabbing creatures on this planet. Except for bears."

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    This is the first intelligent post I've seen from McWaffles.

    Completely agreed with (the nature of) the post.

    RS needs more lovin' before 1.5 is released, especially the physical mitigation department and raid utility.
    Last edited by Threx; 09-16-2011 at 12:38 PM.

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    Rift Master McWaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Threx View Post
    This is the first intelligent post I've seen from McWaffles.

    Completely agreed with (the nature of) the post.

    RS needs more lovin' before 1.5 is released, especially the physical mitigation department and raid utility.
    Please dont confuse me with Mcwaffle. Bastard jacked my name. (my account was a month before his)
    "You're just realizing the fault of your species, human beings are the most untrustworthy, backstabbing creatures on this planet. Except for bears."

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    Quote Originally Posted by McWaffles View Post
    1) Trion made Riftstalker synergize with other souls better. now make other souls synergize with riftstalker better. Bladedancer is currently (IMO) our best synergy because of the mitigation increase, but the new added damage reduction after parry/dodge is available AFTER 15 points have been spent in bladedancer. Switch the places of "Turn the Tide" and "Strike Back." This will allow riftstalkers to gain access to a mitigation talent without sacrificing a key CD and mitigation/hp from losing points in riftstalker. the 2 point talent would require 17BD to get, meaning you could not be a 51pt Riftstalker, currently essential.
    Agreed here. Speaking of blade dancer, why not switch around "Improved False Blades" with "Blade and Fury." The logic being, no one dps'ing with blade dancer is going to be using false blades as a finisher (they are going to use deadly strike), therefore either remove the improved false blades talent and put something useful in its place for dps purposes or move it down to where a 51rs tank may access it.

    Quote Originally Posted by McWaffles View Post
    2) Increase the soft and hard caps on dodge/parry for rogue tanks, allowing us to actually be a mitigation tank without needing block. This could be added in as a specific recalculation for the soul once x amount of points are in the class, or an added effect to guardian phase increasing dodge and parry by an additional x% per x points of dodge/parry, capping at a % of the current dodge/parry caps. (50% or so of the current caps)

    3) Because we have so much for attack power in the soul, why not make use of it since 51pts is required? Much as cleric tanks benefit from spell power, increase the dodge and parry of rogue tanks by .75 of their attack power. This in conjunction with #2 would truly make us an actual mitigation tank. Clerics would still receive an overall larger amount to their mitigations, gaining to 3 different stats and with SP much more readily available (200 from powerstone, over 300 from HK 1h weapon [and let's face it, this is about rogues not being able to tank HK and beyond]).
    I've been thinking this for a while now. The riftstalker tree seems to have a lot of +AP stuff, but bafflingly, riftstalker tanking does not derive a portion of its mitigation from AP like cleric tanking does. They should definitely change it to make it so, that way a rogue in Guardian Phase feels good about putting up that Annihilate buff. Definitely agree with raising the dodge/parry cap also, if only for the purpose of being consistent with the flavor of the riftstalker. "The highly mobile" rogue tank should have higher caps on these stats than the other tanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by McWaffles View Post
    4) Make Rift Guard scale with armor. Why armor? Because armor is the one thing guaranteed to increase with each new rank of gear, meaning that no matter how stats change over time, this is a permanent fix to make us scale over time.
    I'm not sure about this one. But it seems apparent that rift guard needs to continue to scale more dynamically than it currently does. We are currently limited by the fact that you can't go beyond 51 points in RS and the fact that the scaling of rift guard based on our hp is insufficient to contain the incoming damage of T2 raid content. Would it theoretically work to scale it additionally with armor? Or keep it the way it is but give guardian phase a (much) more massive HP booster? I don't know. But something's missing and this is the most important issue with rogue tanking.

    Quote Originally Posted by McWaffles View Post
    5) Increase Riftstalker armor by 1 point per 1 point of dexterity. This would not be major, but would help.
    And/Or how about a new set of runes that gave direct +armor bonuses to the pieces they enchanted. Leather only (could be part of the next release of runes, since runecrafters didn't get anything in the last patch with all the major crafting updates).

    Quote Originally Posted by McWaffles View Post
    6) Planar switch is NOT useless, but it is limited and IMO a waste of a 31 pt. ability. It also is counterproductive in situations since Rift Scavenge would not activate if there were no combo points left on a dying target. Instead, replace this with a purge. Rift Prison has such limited application, even when it may be effective it's often ignored. replace Rift prison with an interrupt. This would put us SLIGHTLY on track with other tanks in ways of raid utility.
    It'd be nice if planar switch was more useful for a 31 pt ability but maybe that's too much to ask. It's a cheap combo point as it is. That's all most people use it for because there's already so many other more important things a rogue tank has to manage in a multitarget situation (buffs and aoe threat) so that the use that perhaps planar switch was originally intended for kind of got lost with all the buttons riftstalker tanks have to manage. Its a little bit funny, not that I mind it now, but the large number of buttons is what initially made me balk at even trying to tank as a rogue, but once I got used to it, I was hooked. If planar switch could somehow be changed to streamline the situation, that'd be nice, but its not completely necessary. I've heard the suggestion to just make planar switch a passive ability so that your combo points always switch targets with you and that sounds like something way too nice to expect.

    As far as getting rid of rift prison...I don't see it happening. It's too useful in pvp.

    Quote Originally Posted by McWaffles View Post
    7) To tie into our NEED for raid utility, since warriors increase raid dps, clerics have a battle rez and raid healing, Riftstalker lore puts us as protective. So why not spread shields to other raid members? Well, that would often be incredibly overpowered (but so is Spotter's Order). Instead, give Riftstalkers a raid cleanse as a 36 pt. root ability and a single target "attunement" to one other player reducing the damage they receive by 15% and the threat they generate by 50% as a 38 pt. root ability, still limiting them to a rogue tank, meaning a dps would have to gimp themselves to get it (just like a non-tank warrior for SO), as well as preventing the damage reduction from being used on another tank, unless you plan on them losing aggro.
    And I'd like to add that said raid utility should be in a form that can be almost constantly maintained (read: not something that lasts for 20 seconds and is on a multi minute cooldown (something cool and useful in a broad application sort of way, would it kill you to go out on a limb here?). I mean I appreciate how conservatively Trion approaches their changes, but rogue tanks need something fairly drastic. Not just to restore the state of rogue tanking at the high end, but to restore the confidence that was lost by not having it competitive in the first place with the introduction of HK.


    Good post OP.

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    *Gives OP back his enter key*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollowjack View Post
    As far as getting rid of rift prison...I don't see it happening. It's too useful in pvp.
    Riftstalkers were announced to have received their interrupt after this post was made, making that no longer needed. The reason it was suggested as a replacement was due to that we would be giving up (possible) utility for a much more needed utility. and IMO, interrupts are pretty awesome in pvp too, esp. a 20 meter interrupt.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hollowjack View Post
    And I'd like to add that said raid utility should be in a form that can be almost constantly maintained (read: not something that lasts for 20 seconds and is on a multi minute cooldown (something cool and useful in a broad application sort of way, would it kill you to go out on a limb here?). I mean I appreciate how conservatively Trion approaches their changes, but rogue tanks need something fairly drastic. Not just to restore the state of rogue tanking at the high end, but to restore the confidence that was lost by not having it competitive in the first place with the introduction of HK.
    This is ONE of the reasons i do NOT like their proposed addition to Riftstalkers being a 1 1/2 minute cooldown for a 20 second hp boost to raid. First, the healers then have to top everyone off, and we get something else that's only useful in situations versus the much asked for by community perpetually useful utility. I proposed a cleanse because that actually IS useful, and to keep an AoE cleanse, like 10 targets to stay in line with other cleanses, on an equivalent cooldown would be insanely helpful, especially in fights like sicaron.

    The other utility I proposed, the damage reduction, is something that not only ties in perfectly to the lore of the class, but is a utility consistent across SEVERAL MMO's that has always seemed effective. PROTECT THOSE SUPPORT! Reduce the aggro of a healer or bard/archon and make them less likely to die.
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    TO ADD: After crunching the numbers, Spotter's Order(at 3 pts 520 extra physical damage to one attack every 3 seconds for 20 seconds to all attackers, no CD), considering a 20 man raid being conservative and saying at any time there are 5 people not attacking, SO adds 2600 dps to a 20 man raid. What does this mean? It means that a warrior tank with SO, adding his dps to the added from SO does about the dps of 2 raid dps rogues.

    2600 DPS

    If trion honestly thinks an extra 1500 hp for 20 seconds out of every 90 seconds is honestly going to be equivalent enough raid utility for a raid to want a rogue over a warrior tank they are POORLY mistaken. even if rogues are BETTER tanks, SO is TOO GOOD TO LOSE.

    Trion made the visible effort to nerf us way back in the early days of release to change Boosted Recovery from 10/20/30% increased healing to 2/4/6% increased healing so that we would "BE IN LINE WITH WARLORD'S FIGUREHEAD."

    Now, MAKE US IN LINE WITH WARLORD'S SPOTTER'S ORDER!

    If Riftstalkers are to be placed ANYWHERE in line with SO, it either has to be nerfed(LOL, warrior nerfs, what a concept) or we have to gain a GOOD utility that would make us beneficial to have.

    Something along the lines of:
    Planar Shroud: 40 energy, no CD, 20 meter range; The Riftstalker envelop's the enemy with a shroud of debilitating planar energy, reducing the damage done by the target by 5% and causing all incoming critical hits to increase all critical damage done by the attacker by 2% and increase their chance to critically hit with spells and physical attacks by 1% for 5 seconds, stacking up to 5 times. Energy cost of this ability is reduced with more combo points. Duration is increased with more combo points:
    1 pt. - 4 seconds
    2 pts. - 8 seconds
    3 pts. - 12 seconds
    4 pts. - 16 seconds
    5 pts. - 20 seconds
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    Wouldn't that just get overwritten by bard buffs? I know you guys are jealous of the warlord tree, but don't copy all the crap stuff too! In reality, SO doesn't do 2600 dps. Most parses I see are around 1800. Still a lot. Still not scaling, and still "required" to play a warrior.

    Would be cool if it increased critical strike bonus damage by 1/2/3/4/5%. That'd be more unique.

    And they should make the HP buff an always on aura (increase total HP by 5%). By working off HP and not endurance, it would stack with archon aura. Would make a lot of fights desirable to have a rogue tank in the mix (I'm thinking herald, Hylas, matron)
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    I've mixed feelings about this post.

    You're about a month behind on the RS tank qq. There has been tons of threads about it, as well as potential fixes for it. But for whatever reason, Trion decided to address a non-issue: threat.

    Your math is funky and off, though I suppose it doesn't change the essence of the complaints. 51 point riftstalker's rift guard is not 31.5% absorb. Do read the tooltip carefully. 2600 dps + whatever the tank is doing with his other abilities is not the dps of two raid rogues, at least not ones that belong in HK. It does propel the "tank" into an absurdly high dps spot if you count all of the spotter's procs as his dps.

    I'm a ranged tanking weapon away from being fully clad in HK tank gear myself, the itemization on the pieces not purchased by greater marks actually have less total mitigation stats compared to tier 1 token pieces.

    ... but i'm tired of it. I've swapped my subscription from 3 mo to 1 mo. Possibly leaving after 1.5 depending on what ends up going live and what doesn't. From all accounts, the dps buffs on PTS are pretty much getting shat on, with our total dps capability actually dropping compared to what it was.

    Yeah, because nerfing sab aoe dps was necessary... when warriors and cabalists easily pulll equal if not more on heavy aoe fights. Sure, we got a sliiiiight boost to ST from the beefed blast charge, but who cares? The only fight that matters atm is Aklyios, and you aoe until your eyes bleed on that overgrown squid.

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    Rift Master McWaffles's Avatar
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    I understand the part about this being late, but the reason i posted ANOTHER thread is simply because I figured they would at least address the issues that everyone else had posted, but since the multiple 30+ page threads about Riftstalkers did nothing to phase Trion, I figured I'd add to the flood.

    My math with SO is based on it's tooltip damage of 520 physical at 3 attack points added to one attack every 3 seconds, lasting 20 seconds. Considering it has no cooldown, I was considering that it would always be up. 520 every 3 seconds, so 520/3 for the dps per person, then multiplied by 15 considering 15 people hitting the boss is 2600. there is possible disparity with mechanics and breaks between hitting too, but that is ideal dps added if only 15 people are hitting the boss. Adding our raid tanks average of around 300 dps to that is 2900, and most of our rogues only get 1400-1600 in HK unless on sicaron(granted on early fights though), meaning that is close to the dps of 2 raid rogues, most of the dps rogues in T3 gear with raid T1 weapons, some relics and a few hk drops. especially since spotters order is added to their dps.

    Everything i presented really is just some kind of a proposed idea. i dont expect to see any of them, but they are something to work off of. Even if we had better mitigation at this point than warrior's, the raid would still have to gimp a warrior to get SO, meaning they'd probably just take a warrior tank anyways since they can obviously tank the content well enough anyways, so why gimp the dps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebb View Post
    Wouldn't that just get overwritten by bard buffs? I know you guys are jealous of the warlord tree, but don't copy all the crap stuff too! In reality, SO doesn't do 2600 dps. Most parses I see are around 1800. Still a lot. Still not scaling, and still "required" to play a warrior.

    Would be cool if it increased critical strike bonus damage by 1/2/3/4/5%. That'd be more unique.

    And they should make the HP buff an always on aura (increase total HP by 5%). By working off HP and not endurance, it would stack with archon aura. Would make a lot of fights desirable to have a rogue tank in the mix (I'm thinking herald, Hylas, matron)
    If it were a multi-layered buff it shouldn't be overwritten, but i see where the crit chance does have the potential to be overwritten. I was just presenting an idea i would hope to see come close to the added dps SO does, because honestly, anything short of that just wouldn't cut it. even if the rogue tank got a dps utility equivalent to SO, they would have to not stack with each other, otherwise a raid would require SO anyways by gimping a warrior dps into a hybrid spec or only taking warrior and rogue tanks, still leaving out clerics. they also deserve an equal chance.
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    I have said this in other threads and i will say it in this one, riftstalkers shouldn't want any kind of dps raid utility as long as SO exists - it creates too much of a headache. Raids will either throw their cleric tanks out the window, running with a rogue and a warrior always - or if the buff doesn't stack we will end up in a competition scenario and it will be whoever has the best buff.

    I can't speak for everyone but the way i see it - if a guild wants to use a rogue main or off tank they can - if they want to run a cleric or warrior they can - it shouldn't be I have to run my warrior main tank every single fight because of x - or my cleric mt because of y. all three should have strengths and weaknesses but in the end be able to perform at least adequately on any given encounter.

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    Shield of Telara Hellebron's Avatar
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    It's perfectly viable to run a Warlord hybrid in a raid for SO.

    Let's not be greedy and demand a rogue version of SO. Riftstalker brings it's own unique abilities to a raid.

    Let's pick our battles. Rogue physical mitigation needs to be fixed, period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellebron View Post
    It's perfectly viable to run a Warlord hybrid in a raid for SO.

    Let's not be greedy and demand a rogue version of SO. Riftstalker brings it's own unique abilities to a raid.

    Let's pick our battles. Rogue physical mitigation needs to be fixed, period.
    oh i completely agree - but until rogues have at least enough mitigation where we can tank progression raid content effectively(we don't need as much as warriors and clerics since we should have more hp... but the gap should be very close otherwise that extra hp is meaningless.) it will never be worth it to have a warrior run a warlord hybrid since the warriors and clerics are taking so much less damage why have a rogue take the hits.

    The only way that will change is if we get a significant boost in physical mit - even from the test numbers. Or we bring something so amazing to the raid wher it becomes "run a rogue tank just to get buff x or y" that 2nd option is SO all over again so we wont go there...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElusiveFox View Post
    oh i completely agree - but until rogues have at least enough mitigation where we can tank progression raid content effectively(we don't need as much as warriors and clerics since we should have more hp... but the gap should be very close otherwise that extra hp is meaningless.) it will never be worth it to have a warrior run a warlord hybrid since the warriors and clerics are taking so much less damage why have a rogue take the hits.

    The only way that will change is if we get a significant boost in physical mit - even from the test numbers. Or we bring something so amazing to the raid wher it becomes "run a rogue tank just to get buff x or y" that 2nd option is SO all over again so we wont go there...
    Well, to say we SHOULD have more hp is wrong too. Currently, cleric tanks get hp just as easily as rogue tanks WHILE having the physical mitigation, we get more non-physical mitigation though. In that regard, cleric tanks do need an additional reduction in non-physical damage taken.

    Also, because warriors are the top dps as well as the top tanks, even if rogues and clerics were as good of a tank as them, there is no reason to have the rogue or cleric go tank for a single tank fight and nerf a warrior's dps so they have SO when you could have the warrior tank and apply SO as a tank while having the cleric or rogue dps in that place.

    IMO, what they should truly do to make SO balanced and remove it from the main tanking aspect is to return to the original design of Warlord as a support class. Do this by changing many of the tanking talents into benefitting support while moving SO farther through the tree as a root ability. Or make the tanking talents be part of the aspect of the support (like a defensive support/tank helper), and do it in conjunction with BM, allowing their buffs to stack with other support. this would give warrior a third role, so in other words have the same amount of roles as rogues and mages. This would COMPLETELY eliminate SO as a tank mechanic and add a third support role to most raids, meaning it really would come down to what tank has the mitigation to complete the fight.
    Last edited by McWaffles; 09-18-2011 at 01:04 PM.
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