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Thread: Rogue Tanking

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Rogue Tanking

    So... the problem with Rogue tanking had a few aspects to it.

    1. Tougher threat generation than other tanks. Still able to hold aggro, just tricker. (2 points into guarded steel pop it, then use threat, should be using Crustacean and Stormshard, etc) Warrior? Spam Spotter's Orders every time it's up. Hopefully addressed by the reflects (if they generate threat properly) and the 200% threat increase (even though threat was nerfed to all of our threat building abilities)

    2. Spiking too hard on melee attacks... so every time we blink, we get to absorb some melee damage. Sure, we can time that with... oh wait, big boss mechanics on casting bars and timed mechanics are magic. Something we already handle well. So we're getting 1% per 1000 armor... so maximum, with all Hammerknell gear (which you need to be able to run Hammerknell to acquire) you might get a 10% increase? So the 8k hits from auto attacks will cause us to get hit for 7200 IF we are max geared. Oh, and our blinks? Try blinking on Lord Greenscale, the first raid boss to be put into the game, and see how he occasionally turns because your blink isn't calculated in the world properly? Yeah, I can't use it.

    3. Lack of utility... addressed a bit. Adding a reflect is great utility, in all honesty. Will just be hard to use. But it's also in line with the soul's design and uniqueness, which I do like.

    So... 2 of our 3 main problems have been addressed. The biggie, not being able to take the physical damage in Hammerknell effectively... still going to be an issue.

    I rolled Warrior and haven't looked back... sure, it's faceroll, not as fun, not as unique, not as engaging, and only takes 3 buttons (I miss having to push 7-10 on Riftstalker in all honesty) but guess what? I don't fall over and die after 3 auto attacks. And I add utility. And *gasp* can interrupt the mob. And have multiple tanking soul choices.

    I'm aware the game's design was to kinda give a primary role to each class (Warrior is best tank, Cleric best healer, Mage best jack of all trades, Rogue best jack of all trades) but the class should at least be viable. We're not asking to be as good as Warriors, and hell, I expect to spike harder than a Warrior. I should, as long as I can take Magic damage better (oh wait, VK's get 30% magic damage reduction from two passive buffs that they don't need AP to apply...) or add something else to the raid. But if I need to tank or need to off tank, at least make it possible and workable, not laughable. This problem is still not addressed.

  2. #2
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Threat generation's never been an issue for rogue tanks. It really hasn't. The crying about rogue threat generation has, unfortunately, gotten the attention of the devs over the real issue of a total lack of a scaling mitigation.

    The patch gave alot of unnecessary love to riftstalker threat gen and pretty much missed the mark on increasing survivability.

    Scaling Rift Guard capacity from 150% to 250% does absolutely NOTHING to increase our survivability. What we needed was a scaling absorb% for the incoming damage. Having my shield be able to absorb 38k damage instead of 22.5k total does nothing if the absorbed % remains at a static ~35%. I mean, it would increase rift guard uptime if we're tanking multiple mobs... but that's a moot point, since if we do tank multiple mobs that do any real damage, we're dead anyway.

    And that physical mit talent that scales with armor? That's just some warrior dev's dumb idea of how to fix rogue mitigation. I'm missing one piece of HK rogue tank gear, and my base armor sits at a bit above 4k. If we could get 15000 base armor to cap out this talent, we wouldn't need this talent to begin with.

    I mean, seriously? 15k base armor? I do hope they realize that that would become ~24k armor with guardian phase up as a 51 point Riftstalker? add 20% mitigation from the skill, 6% from RS talent, 6% from phantom strike... then you take 35% off of that from Rift Guard? You'd be able to heal a rogue tank with a bard in Hammerknell.

    Way to miss the mark on the RS tweaks, Trion.

  3. #3
    Plane Walker Phantom Scony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    Threat generation's never been an issue for rogue tanks. It really hasn't. The crying about rogue threat generation has, unfortunately, gotten the attention of the devs over the real issue of a total lack of a scaling mitigation.

    The patch gave alot of unnecessary love to riftstalker threat gen and pretty much missed the mark on increasing survivability.

    Scaling Rift Guard capacity from 150% to 250% does absolutely NOTHING to increase our survivability. What we needed was a scaling absorb% for the incoming damage. Having my shield be able to absorb 38k damage instead of 22.5k total does nothing if the absorbed % remains at a static ~35%. I mean, it would increase rift guard uptime if we're tanking multiple mobs... but that's a moot point, since if we do tank multiple mobs that do any real damage, we're dead anyway.

    And that physical mit talent that scales with armor? That's just some warrior dev's dumb idea of how to fix rogue mitigation. I'm missing one piece of HK rogue tank gear, and my base armor sits at a bit above 4k. If we could get 15000 base armor to cap out this talent, we wouldn't need this talent to begin with.

    I mean, seriously? 15k base armor? I do hope they realize that that would become ~24k armor with guardian phase up as a 51 point Riftstalker? add 20% mitigation from the skill, 6% from RS talent, 6% from phantom strike... then you take 35% off of that from Rift Guard? You'd be able to heal a rogue tank with a bard in Hammerknell.

    Way to miss the mark on the RS tweaks, Trion.
    While I agree with your points, I have to say it's too early to say Trion is ignoring our need for physical mitigation in favor of people crying that we needed threat. If you look at recent changes, Trion hasn't done a whole lot to our threat except move the threat modifier off the skills and onto guardian phase.

    Trion can't wield game changes like a broadsword, hacking through doors. When the patch goes live, then we can complain they missed the mark. Until then, they haven't really fired the shot. Too many people are taking this entirely too personally. Trion has proven a number of times that they listen to constructive criticism.

    Posts that berate their methods prematurely only hurt our cause, brother. Trion knows we're broken.
    "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
    "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
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  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    Threat generation's never been an issue for rogue tanks. It really hasn't. The crying about rogue threat generation has, unfortunately, gotten the attention of the devs over the real issue of a total lack of a scaling mitigation.

    The patch gave alot of unnecessary love to riftstalker threat gen and pretty much missed the mark on increasing survivability.

    Scaling Rift Guard capacity from 150% to 250% does absolutely NOTHING to increase our survivability.
    You are so right. They could make Rift Guard scale to 10,000% of our HP but if it still only absorbs 35% at 51pt, who the heck cares? The only problems I have ever had with threat gen is when I'm tanking with a warrior with spotter's up. I'm not saying I couldn't hold or grab threat, I just had to push my buttons harder. They could also make Guardian Phase do 10,000% threat. Still won't help that we have solid threat when we die in 2 hits anyway.
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  5. #5
    Plane Walker Rizz's Avatar
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    Shadow Guard bases off Buffed Armor rather then base since yesterday's pts patch. So it's about 12-13% in Full rT1.
    Rathi@Gelidra <Invictus>
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  6. #6
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizz View Post
    Shadow Guard bases off Buffed Armor rather then base since yesterday's pts patch. So it's about 12-13% in Full rT1.
    Going off buffed armor, it'll be 12% in full tier 2 dropped rogue tank armor (not the purchased pieces, though it'll be about the same unless you spring for the relic quality versions)

  7. #7
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom Scony View Post
    While I agree with your points, I have to say it's too early to say Trion is ignoring our need for physical mitigation in favor of people crying that we needed threat. If you look at recent changes, Trion hasn't done a whole lot to our threat except move the threat modifier off the skills and onto guardian phase.

    Trion can't wield game changes like a broadsword, hacking through doors. When the patch goes live, then we can complain they missed the mark. Until then, they haven't really fired the shot. Too many people are taking this entirely too personally. Trion has proven a number of times that they listen to constructive criticism.

    Posts that berate their methods prematurely only hurt our cause, brother. Trion knows we're broken.
    I had the patience and was posting mildly phrased requests and suggestions, a month and a half ago when HK came out and we killed the 3 bosses that could be killed at the time.

    Sorry, patience is running short. I'll stick around to see the release of 1.5, and if they can't get tanking or dps right (most recent pts build shat all over rogue dps everywhere), i'm just done.

    I love (or rather, loved) the game, but its turning sour by the evident lack of an actual rogue development team.
    Last edited by MoonfireSpam; 09-17-2011 at 01:39 PM.

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