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Thread: Shadow Guard test

  1. #1
    RIFT Guide Writer
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    Default Shadow Guard test

    Test was done with one rogue with 0/0/0 souls hitting a riftstalker tank in a duel with keen strike until a critical hit to get consistent damage, no proc trinkets were used. Riftstalker had no selfbuffs such as rift guard up except for guardian phase when mentioned. At the beginning of test the RS had no shadow guard, it was specced halfway in the test.
    Without guardian phase the RS had 5707 armor for 46.75% physical resistance.
    With guardian phase the RS had 8085 armor for 55.43% physical resistance.

    Test 1:
    no shadow guard, no guardian phase: 190

    Test 2:
    no shadow guard, guardian phase: 159

    Test 3:
    shadow guard, no guardian phase: 171

    Test 4:
    shadow guard, guardian phase: 143

    And the result therefore is that Shadow Guard acts as a multiplier effect on damage taken and it is calculated from base armor before guardian phase and I would assume before guarded steel however I did not test guarded steel. The armor I was wearing was full HK relics, so the best you can hope for out of this in its current form is 10% less physical damage, most will probably be at 9%. Good luck hitting that 20% maximum.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched RageHulkSmash's Avatar
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    Shadow guard could use some refinements.

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    Not only is it currently impossible to hit the maximum potential of that talent as a rogue... it calculates off of BASE armor?

    I'm going to have to take back what i've said in other threads about this talent making it more feasible to tank HK bosses, because 9%, while nice, does diddly.

    It means ~1k dmg less on bosses before rift guard on autoattacks. So instead of ~11k dmg, ~3.8k absorbed, 7.2k hits... you get 10.2k dmg, ~3.6k absorbed, 6.6k hits.

    Its better, but still nowhere even near competitive.

  4. #4
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    This is what I posted in another thread:


    The concept of Shadow Guard is nice, but with the current numbers it's still far, far from effective.

    With full t1 raid gear, I'm sitting at 3.4k base armor (just adding up the armor from the 7 pieces), which means that Shadow Guard will give me 8% physical mitigation (5% + 3%). Let's round it to 10% for simplicity's sake.

    This means that I would be taking 10% less physical damage than I am now during actual combat. If I'm taking an average of 2000 dps in physical damage during a boss fight, Shadow Guard would reduce that to 1800 dps.

    According to parsers I've seen, in HK a rogue tank takes approximately TWICE the physical damage of a warrior tank with equal gear. If a war tank is taking 1k dps in physical damage, a rogue tank will be taking about 2k dps. Having Shadow Guard would reduce that to 1800 dps, which is still WAY more damage taken than a warrior tank.

    To make Shadow Guard effective enough for us to be competitive to warrior tanks, it will need to increase our mitigation by about 1% per 100 armor, not per 1000. The cap would also have to be removed.

    If it gives us 1% per 100 armor, with HK gear you can probably break 4k base armor, and Shadow Guard will thus give you 45% reduced physical damage (5% + 40%) from what we are currently taking. This will make our physical damage taken similar to a warrior's.

    tl;dr: 1% per 1000 armor is ret.arded.

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple Zenora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Threx View Post
    This is what I posted in another thread:


    The concept of Shadow Guard is nice, but with the current numbers it's still far, far from effective.

    With full t1 raid gear, I'm sitting at 3.4k base armor (just adding up the armor from the 7 pieces), which means that Shadow Guard will give me 8% physical mitigation (5% + 3%). Let's round it to 10% for simplicity's sake.

    This means that I would be taking 10% less physical damage than I am now during actual combat. If I'm taking an average of 2000 dps in physical damage during a boss fight, Shadow Guard would reduce that to 1800 dps.

    According to parsers I've seen, in HK a rogue tank takes approximately TWICE the physical damage of a warrior tank with equal gear. If a war tank is taking 1k dps in physical damage, a rogue tank will be taking about 2k dps. Having Shadow Guard would reduce that to 1800 dps, which is still WAY more damage taken than a warrior tank.

    To make Shadow Guard effective enough for us to be competitive to warrior tanks, it will need to increase our mitigation by about 1% per 100 armor, not per 1000. The cap would also have to be removed.

    If it gives us 1% per 100 armor, with HK gear you can probably break 4k base armor, and Shadow Guard will thus give you 45% reduced physical damage (5% + 40%) from what we are currently taking. This will make our physical damage taken similar to a warrior's.

    tl;dr: 1% per 1000 armor is ret.arded.
    It all depends on when the damage is calculated. If it calculates of the base damage done this is rather good. If not then its probably poor. Because a mob in HK can hit people for 30k of your taking 10% of that that is 3k. And this would actually help rogues out quite a bit since we are getting hit for a large amount now a 3k reduction could actually make us survivable. I think more testing will need to be done to find out if this really is effective or not.
    Last edited by Zenora; 09-12-2011 at 06:11 AM.

  6. #6
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    To be honest I think they hastily threw Shadow Guard in there to say "we're working on this" and didn't intend it to be a panacea for our mitigation problems. Whether they add in other new talents, adjust Rift Guard or adjust the values on Shadow Guard it was clear -- even if it was calculated off of buffed armour -- that Shadow Guard alone would not be enough to close the gap. It's not surprising that it works off of base armour as all the other Riftstalker skills and talents do (not sure about Warriors).

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenora View Post
    It all depends on when the damage is calculated. If it calculates of the base damage done this is rather good. If not then its probably poor. Because a mob in HK can hit people for 30k of your taking 10% of that that is 3k. And this would actually help rogues out quite a bit since we are getting hit for a large amount now a 3k reduction could actually make us survivable. I think more testing will need to be done to find out if this really is effective or not.
    Nope, it doesn't matter which percentage mitigation is calculated first. The final number is still the same.

    For example:

    You have 50% mitigation from armor, 30% from an ability, and 10% from another ability.

    You get hit for 10,000 damage.

    Let's say it mitigates using the 50% first, then 30%, then 10%. The 10,000 turns to 5,000. The 5,000 then turns to 3,500. Then the 3,500 turns to 3,150 final damage taken.

    Now try calculating it in order of 30%, 10%, then 50%.

    10,000 -> 7,000 -> 6,300 -> 3,150 is final damage taken.

    Having 10% mitigation from shadow guard will literally make us take 10% less physical damage than what we are taking now. It's not enough. We need approximately 50% to be competitive to warriors.
    Last edited by Threx; 09-12-2011 at 06:19 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    Hi Jereome, just wanted to pop in and let you know that we are in fact looking at Riftstalker tanks. The changes that have been pushed up to PTS have primarily been to address the other concerns raised - there is a list of what the goals were for said changes that can be found in other posts and in the PTS patch notes I believe.

    Riftstalker tanks are actively being reviewed. That said, we needed to get the previous round of changes in for player review before moving onto the tanking issues. If you patch to PTS today you should hopefully see some Riftstalker tanking issues being addressed. We have not addressed all the issues yet, we have more to do.

    Please keep the following in mind with this round of changes - We are going to be reviewing all tanking classes in the not to distant future. Any changes we make now to the class have that in mind.

    Sounds like there's more to come. Just thought I would share that for those who didn't read that thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by -Beck- View Post
    Sounds like there's more to come. Just thought I would share that for those who didn't read that thread.
    Yup, let's hope to all that his holy and unholy that they actually test out the numbers instead of just throwing in a new mitigation ability and tagging a random number with it.

    The good thing is we know now that they've acknowledged Riftstalker's physical tanking issues.

    The question mark still remains whether they understand the extent of it.

    Crossing my fingers.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Threx View Post
    Yup, let's hope to all that his holy and unholy that they actually test out the numbers instead of just throwing in a new mitigation ability and tagging a random number with it.

    The good thing is we know now that they've acknowledged Riftstalker's physical tanking issues.

    The question mark still remains whether they understand the extent of it.

    Crossing my fingers.
    This is where constructive feedback from people on the PTS comes in. Hopefully players will realize that Trion do pretty well at looking at player feedback (obviously, look at the main Rogue gripes since 1.3 or so and see nearly every one addressed) and instead of *****ing, provide feedback and numbers

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruination View Post
    This is where constructive feedback from people on the PTS comes in. Hopefully players will realize that Trion do pretty well at looking at player feedback (obviously, look at the main Rogue gripes since 1.3 or so and see nearly every one addressed) and instead of *****ing, provide feedback and numbers
    This. The best thing Riftstalkers wanting change can do is be a part of the PTS, helping them test. Give feedback. Play with it. Remember not to cry wolf until live patch day. xD
    "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
    "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
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  12. #12
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruination View Post
    This is where constructive feedback from people on the PTS comes in. Hopefully players will realize that Trion do pretty well at looking at player feedback (obviously, look at the main Rogue gripes since 1.3 or so and see nearly every one addressed) and instead of *****ing, provide feedback and numbers
    Preach it, brotha! Trion will listen to logical and reasoned feedback much more than they will mass qq. I think most people who main RS and have stuck with it are more inclined that way. The class favours a certain attentiveness and awareness of detail. Let's put forth a good showing and not get swept up in the usual hysteria. We're too awesome for that.

  13. #13
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    In my opinion, while most of the changes to RS seem to be targetting threat generation, Shadow Guard is a step towards giving us better survivability against the big physical damage dealing bosses. I agree with whoever said that the situation currently in PTS seems to be more like a "placeholder" - something like a work-in-progress, and they'll be tweaking based on tests and feedbacks.

    My guild just started Hammerknell in live and we're using warriors to tank Murdantix. I'd love to see how my rogue would go against the big guy, but with only 208 toughness and less than 12k health I don't blame my friends to say "ehh... We will go with two warriors". Hehe Then I bard, bard, bard...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom Scony View Post
    This. The best thing Riftstalkers wanting change can do is be a part of the PTS, helping them test. Give feedback. Play with it. Remember not to cry wolf until live patch day. xD
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruination View Post
    This is where constructive feedback from people on the PTS comes in. Hopefully players will realize that Trion do pretty well at looking at player feedback (obviously, look at the main Rogue gripes since 1.3 or so and see nearly every one addressed) and instead of *****ing, provide feedback and numbers
    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    Preach it, brotha! Trion will listen to logical and reasoned feedback much more than they will mass qq. I think most people who main RS and have stuck with it are more inclined that way. The class favours a certain attentiveness and awareness of detail. Let's put forth a good showing and not get swept up in the usual hysteria. We're too awesome for that.
    Agreed, Agreed and Agreed. Give feedback and suggestions on what you would like to see, because Trion does listen to the community.

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