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Thread: Current PVE Rogue Problems (even with 1.5)

  1. #1
    Plane Walker Boneloaf's Avatar
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    Default Current PVE Rogue Problems (even with 1.5)

    Rogue Tank Tankiness:

    Unable to tank effectively with bosses dealing physical damage higher than GSB/ROS strength--HK/DH show signs of bosses that hit rogues considerably harder, with HK doubling what DH offers as highest physical hits (when toughness requirement is met), and DH about 1.5x-2x harder hits than what GSB offers in damage. This has been attributed to rogue Rift Guard or Guarded Steel not scaling with stats. Needs to be addressed and fixed. Use endurance, armor, or toughness or a combination of all three, but both the min-max total absorbtion amount and the % absorbed need to scale with these stats in one way or another.

    Rogue Tank Threat:

    Apparent moreso in Drowned Halls than other instances, rogue instigate is broken. I noticed this between 2-3 patches ago. If Instigate is used to pull a secondary mob towards the rogue it may gain aggro for a split second and immediately resume its collision course with a healer and kill them. It is not holding for it's full duration and only seems to work outside of DH, or after you've already had aggro. Instigate will not work properly 100% prior to already being first on the aggro list. General threat is also a problem with the rising DPS of all callings with new gear. Rogues still build non-scaling threat (not enough of it) to maintain aggro on all mobs, either due to the static threat of our abilities dealing extra threat, or the lack of our raw dps as a tank. There needs to be some scaling of threat or a general beefing of our threat to compensate this. Guarded Steel allows 40% extra threat and this is still not always enough for any aoe pulls at the high-end unless threat was already bestowed on the rogue from a boss. Rogue Instigate needs fixed and general threat needs to be stable and highly scalable, not a fixed value on skills that scales very slightly with weapon dps.

    Rogue DPS as a whole:

    Patch 1.5 does much to bring rogue souls inline with each other and expand our dps choices slightly. What it does not do is add the extra "umph" intended to bolster our total dps. Possibly consider upping our base poison tooltip damage to make weapon enchants more than <10% of our dps or add new levels of damage to existing skills, rather than constantly scaling them with AP. As it stands we are constantly out-dps'd by warriors wearing plate with more HP. Warriors clearly out-dpsing rogues even after patch 1.5 changes needs to be addressed. Why bother playing a rogue or Rift if this is not changed?

    Rogue Bard:

    Bards are often the undergeared rogue in a raid. That should give an inclination of how this raiding role is looked upon. This is a tediously boring task I've been lucky not to have to do in some months. Basically keep fervor and motifs up and spam cadence/resto or cadence/debuffs while most importantly, not dying. Congratulations, you can bard. Either this soul was designed to allow a terribad to raid or just poorly executed, but this soul needs a major overhaul!

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    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    /signed

    as it stands bard and riftstalker are not fun to play and are not worth using endgame behind the fact that you have to have a bard bot, but all the raid wants said bard to do is hit verse of joy every 2min and hit 3 motifs every 30 seconds, the rest of the time he can afk and the success or fail of killing a boss will be unchanged.
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
    Marksman, Ranger, Nightblade, Blink'Blade, Asstalker, Assdancer, and finally The Hoko Spec™
    Hoko, teaching noobs the way of rogue pve until 12/20/11.

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    Plane Touched jeffadkins51's Avatar
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    /signed

    I have to admit, I love playing my rogue, especially as a Riftstalker. Unfortunately we just take too much damage to tank in HK, so I'm forced to DPS instead there.

    1.5 is attempting to solve threat issues with the Riftstalker tree but it's not doing anything to reduce our damage taken, which is the main reason that rogues can't tank in HK...

    Also it looks like we'll finally be able to keep up with warriors in DPS, except that they still have way more HP and wear plate... Why play a class that can "keep up" with warrior DPS but has 1/2 the survivability? Seems silly to me, yet I do it anyway because I enjoy playing it.

    Morale of the story: Rogues are a lot of fun, but they still won't be that good even in 1.5.

    My Wish: Being able to tank in HK. We NEED to have more base damage reduction and mitigation to keep up with the top end warrior tanks, right now we're useless in HK and it really makes me cry on the inside >_>;
    When reading this post, let it be known, it was meant to be heard in a non-threatening, non-demanding way. Thank you.

    ~Akylios Down 12/13/11~ ~Akylios Down in 2nd raid group 2/11/2012~

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    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    I've never had a problem with Instigate unless there are other people throwing taunts around. The problem you're facing may simply be that heal aggro is overcoming you before the mob reaches you. Presumably a stray mob that you've taunted won't have a significant amount of threat generated from anyone so reaching the 131% threshold wouldn't take much... especially considering how hard healers have to work so early in the pull with Riftstalkers. ><

    To the first point, yeah. The armour modifiers on our extremely low base armour make for poor scaling, and Rift Guard just doesn't scale at all -- even the total amount absorbed part doesn't scale well enough. What's also bewildering is the advent of static armour penalty debuffs that you see in both HK and DH. Riftstalker is way behind already without throwing in boss mechanics that disproportionately punish them. At best between t1 and t2 raids RS mitigation goes up 6% from armour and that's it. 6% more mitigation, where in t1 raids the hardest-hitting attacks are 4.5k and in t2 you take 4.5k just from the boss looking at you.

  5. #5
    Prophet of Telara Shhhh's Avatar
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    Rogue PVE dps isnt the problem, it's warriors PVE dps. Rogues are still higher than mages ST, and in all fairness we're relatively close, even though overall rogue pulls ahead. Both of us get blown away by warriors. When rogues have to have an incriminate rotation so warriors dont pull aggro theres a problem

    I dont think bringing rogues in line with warriors for DPS is the solution cause then theyd have to buff the hell out of mages to be in line with both of you all. I think the issue is warriors doing 3600 dps on sic are the problem that needs to be toned down.

    I agree w/ the rogue tank points.
    Last edited by Shhhh; 09-09-2011 at 11:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffadkins51 View Post
    Also it looks like we'll finally be able to keep up with warriors in DPS
    Unlikely without further changes to baseline damage for the various souls. The changes basically bring other specs into line with sabdancer which is already behind warriors significantly for both single target AND AOE!

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    tank threat is fine and will be easymode after patch. mitigation should be higher especially against magic dmg, give us our niche.

    dps as others have said is reasonable and we have incrim, it's the warriors that need a slight nerf.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shhhh View Post
    Rogue PVE dps isnt the problem, it's warriors PVE dps. Rogues are still higher than mages ST, and in all fairness we're relatively close, even though overall rogue pulls ahead. Both of us get blown away by warriors. When rogues have to have an incriminate rotation so warriors dont pull aggro theres a problem

    I dont think bringing rogues in line with warriors for DPS is the solution cause then theyd have to buff the hell out of mages to be in line with both of you all. I think the issue is warriors doing 3600 dps on sic are the problem that needs to be toned down.

    I agree w/ the rogue tank points.
    they did some tweaks to the good side on mage dps on 1.5 as well as cleric dps (tho they dont realize it yet), they want everyone doing warrior dps, not the other way around (thank God).
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
    Marksman, Ranger, Nightblade, Blink'Blade, Asstalker, Assdancer, and finally The Hoko Spec™
    Hoko, teaching noobs the way of rogue pve until 12/20/11.

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Where are these warriors doing 2k+ DPS on Murdantix I always hear about? I haven't been beat by a warrior in a long time, though we aren't on Sicaron yet.
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 09-09-2011 at 01:28 PM.

  10. #10
    Rift Disciple Shroomkin's Avatar
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    /sign

    Don't like the new 1.5 that put old Sozo spec into a 20 m lol spec.
    Instant cast Splinter Shot and Empowered Shot would be nice... What's the point of them in when it's a dps lost to cast them, might as well just delete them from the game if all it does is makes my eyes bleed.
    Last edited by Shroomkin; 09-09-2011 at 02:43 PM.

  11. #11
    Prophet of Telara Shhhh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Where are these warriors doing 2k+ DPS on Murdantix I always hear about? I haven't been beat by a warrior in a long time, though we aren't on Sicaron yet.
    Pretty regular by the warriors in our guild (clan of shadows) during the fight. Sometimes towards the end their dps drops a bit, but throughout the fight they're up there.

  12. #12
    Koe
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    I would sign, but everything you said about Bard is wrong.


    Bard is easy to play, true, but not many people play it well. You can easily tell the difference between a good bard, and a bad bard. Also, gear does matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    I would sign, but everything you said about Bard is wrong.


    Bard is easy to play, true, but not many people play it well. You can easily tell the difference between a good bard, and a bad bard. Also, gear does matter.
    Gear matters but it matters fairly minimally currently. The scaling in comparison to other classes is very very low.

  14. #14
    Ascendant Adnoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    I would sign, but everything you said about Bard is wrong.


    Bard is easy to play, true, but not many people play it well. You can easily tell the difference between a good bard, and a bad bard. Also, gear does matter.
    Really doesn't make a difference if your bard plays well or not, so long as he doesnt have an important job to do all he needs to do is hit 3 buttons every 3 seconds and not die.

    (Gear)

  15. #15
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    Sicaron is not really a good indicator of dps because of the blue buff that affects different classes very differently. Warriors and clerics apparently get the whole buff as a multiplier giving them about +50% dps, while rogues in sabdancer build get around +15% because it gets added to all the others such as deadly dance and is therefore heavily diluted. Sicaron just shows the inconsistent math clearly.

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