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Thread: Waiting Until 1.5 to fix Rogues has additional problems. (PvP wise atleast)

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Waiting Until 1.5 to fix Rogues has additional problems. (PvP wise atleast)

    I read the forums but never post. Today I had a thought that made me laugh.

    The longer it takes to fix the rogue class, the worse the fallout will be.

    This requires a few assumptions:
    1. Patch 1.5 makes rogues competitive.
    2. Patch 1.5 takes a few more weeks to release.
    3. There is no transition to competitive, it just happens when the patch releases.

    The problem that arises, as I see it, is like so: Warriors, Mages, and Clerics view most rogues as a free bloodthirsty proc already. Give this type of thinking another month to really settle in. Then make rogues capable of actually killing those three classes. The norm has become "oh a rogue, I could use the free bloodthirsty proc" but after the patch its no longer true. It instantly changed to "that rogue just killed me, their buff made them OP, rogues never kill me." The QQ is going to be massive, even if rogues were to be perfectly balanced, the QQ is going to be impressive. (Even if rogues are still underpowered but are substantially more powerful, this is going to spawn massive QQ.) This is what made me laugh because I think it will probably happen this way.

    An obvious solution is to release small changes, starting soon, over time, to slowly bring rogues into a competitive base, so the other classes can transition out of their "free bloodthirsty proc" thinking. Otherwise, the sticker shock is going to spawn unbelieveable amounts of whining from the other three classes.

    I understand some would attack my assumptions (Esp. the first one) but if it works out it will still be fun to watch. (And as an added benefit I would begin to enjoy pvping on my rogue!) But the problem remains: The longer rogues are kept in this pathetic pvp state, the more difficult it will be to balance them without massive whining from the other classes. If Trion listens to players on the forums, and when the whining about rogues start, we will be nerfed back into bloodthirsty procs to get back to the status quo.

    Either way, I think the longer we remain in our current state, the less likely we are to be properly balanced in the future. Solution? Start implementing fixes sooner, over time, rather than later, all at once.

  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara
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    Truth be told, all classes have always hated Rogues...in every MMO. Visible classes don't like the fact that stealth classes generally make it so they have to travel in a group - they'd rather be able to run around solo without fear of repercussions. This is of course by design. In general, melee-type Rogues have always been a 1v1 class designed to strike fear into the hearts of other classes who would be brave enough to run solo. The trade-off is that these Rogues don't function well in the AoE cluster-'s known as group fights.

    Balance is achieved when every class *****es about every other class. At the moment, there are Mage, Cleric, and Warrior QQ's. The only thing anybody QQ's about with Rogues is our ability to run away with RS builds that do no damage, or Slip Away and deny them their free kill. When they are crying about our damage output there will be balance.

  3. #3
    Shield of Telara
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    There's a lot of people who think rogues are OP as it is.

    Regardless of what happens, you're not going to make everyone happy. Just something we're going to have to live with.

    Obviously for anyone who's played a rogue, there needs to be changes to rogues to make them more viable in more PVP situations... but, rogue's aren't as broken as a ton of people on these forums complain about... although the main specialty to rogues right now is to be annoying... BUT the people stating that rogues are just a free bloodthirsty proc are way underplaying their character.
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  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    Rogues now easiest target in pvp.
    Few days ago someone in warfront said "rogues are the waste of slots in warfronts" Which is true)
    Rogue have to kill classes like mages, but they don`t)
    Last edited by Nesterij; 09-06-2011 at 08:44 AM.

  5. #5
    Champion
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calo View Post
    Truth be told, all classes have always hated Rogues...in every MMO. Visible classes don't like the fact that stealth classes generally make it so they have to travel in a group - they'd rather be able to run around solo without fear of repercussions. This is of course by design. In general, melee-type Rogues have always been a 1v1 class designed to strike fear into the hearts of other classes who would be brave enough to run solo. The trade-off is that these Rogues don't function well in the AoE cluster-'s known as group fights.

    Balance is achieved when every class *****es about every other class. At the moment, there are Mage, Cleric, and Warrior QQ's. The only thing anybody QQ's about with Rogues is our ability to run away with RS builds that do no damage, or Slip Away and deny them their free kill. When they are crying about our damage output there will be balance.
    It doesn't help that they made the best way for assassins to kill someone a stun lock... wich is just the worst MMO mechanic ever.. the opossing party gets absolutely no enjoyment from it because they are never given any, even illusion of, chance to live. I'de rather they replaced one of the stuns with a major debuff(at least then the class would be more usefull/less-QQed-about) and changed slip away to 'reenters stealth, a stealth dots do not break, for 5-10 secs, costs 50-80% energy, 10-12 sec CD'
    Last edited by garethh; 09-06-2011 at 08:52 AM.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrifeV View Post
    There's a lot of people who think rogues are OP as it is.

    Regardless of what happens, you're not going to make everyone happy. Just something we're going to have to live with.

    Obviously for anyone who's played a rogue, there needs to be changes to rogues to make them more viable in more PVP situations... but, rogue's aren't as broken as a ton of people on these forums complain about... although the main specialty to rogues right now is to be annoying... BUT the people stating that rogues are just a free bloodthirsty proc are way underplaying their character.
    Whoever is crying that rogues are OP is simply wrong. I don't even know how you could make such an argument. The most OP thing rogues have is eradicate, and we have to put 44 points into MM to get it. That's not OP. It leaves very few points to put elsewhere.

  7. #7
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by garethh View Post
    It doesn't help that they made the best way for rogues to kill someone a stun lock... wich is just the worst MMO mechanic ever.. the opossing party gets absolutely no enjoyment from it because they are never given any, even illusion of, chance to live. I'de rather they replaced one of the stuns with a major debuff(at least then the class would be more usefull/less-QQed-about) and slip away with a 'reenters stealth for 5-10 secs, costs 50-80% energy, 10-12 sec CD'
    This I completely agree with. Stunlocks are a bad mechanic on ANY class, because it denies the targeted player the ability to react, and the class initiating this stun phase has to be balanced around their target not being able to fight back. Once something like DR's and extra survivability gets put into the game, you end up where we are now - balanced around something that is no longer possible.

    They should leave FP, and remove PS if you ask me and replace it with something else. Some kind of damage debuff, or even an opener that provides a heal debuff would be cool.

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    Rogue needs more damage and less armor)

  9. #9
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by garethh View Post
    It doesn't help that they made the best way for assassins to kill someone a stun lock... wich is just the worst MMO mechanic ever..
    No Blind in Eq1 was worse. You could move but your screen turn black. Sure you could move but you could not see anything. You did (well I did) have to learn to pvp with your eyes closed but that was annoying.
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  10. #10
    Prophet of Telara
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    Excellent point and likely to turn out this way.

    If we get what we need overnight don't get too used to it.

  11. #11
    Ascendant sanosuke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calo View Post
    This I completely agree with. Stunlocks are a bad mechanic on ANY class, because it denies the targeted player the ability to react, and the class initiating this stun phase has to be balanced around their target not being able to fight back. Once something like DR's and extra survivability gets put into the game, you end up where we are now - balanced around something that is no longer possible.

    They should leave FP, and remove PS if you ask me and replace it with something else. Some kind of damage debuff, or even an opener that provides a heal debuff would be cool.
    been saying this since DR change was put into the game.. we got half of what makes us effective taken away yet damage not brought up to par to compensate
    Warfronts need segregation of the Tiers. 1-5 and 6-8 or pre-50 pvp will be the most enjoyable PVP in the game.
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  12. #12
    Plane Touched
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    This thread is a good idea. Not only are you correct - that if the rogue changes happen all at once, and even if they are truly competitive, but not OP, people will *****. Mages, clerics, warriors will be up in arms, because suddenly rogues are able to do well in warfronts. They may truly not be OP but it is going to seem that way to most people. I think it's going to be really tough to avoid this from happening unless Trion doles out the buffs little by little.

    That said, GET ON WITH IT. Throw us a ****ing bone you ****heads. I canceled my sub today. I might purchase one more month when it ends in 3 days, but if they don't fix rogues during that month I will be done completely. It's getting more and more ridiculous each day.

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