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Thread: Rogue tanking - at work a lil rant I guess

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    Plane Touched SiliconShadow's Avatar
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    Default Rogue tanking - at work a lil rant I guess

    I have been having a few problems with tanking T2s on a rogue, it seems to me healers can slack off so much on healing a Cleric or a Warrior tank that they come to a rogue and have to do some work in the initial pull.

    You can answer this by saying "But rogue tanks are usless just go back to DPS" but to be frank any healer I have met that can easily heal single target over 500hps can keep me up without any problems through any T2.

    My tanking gear isn't amazing, my build is just for tanking T2s and I just do standard rotations. Agro yes is a little tricky but normal issues apply, don't HoT the tank as he pulls let him use a CD to pull instead (AoE pulls I use sidesteps, bosses planar refuge) don't attack things as they run to the tank after a recall type pull, wait till they hit his feet then start, most pulls don't need this some help a great deal from this.

    But it is also the other way around I found, if you think a healer is ready and you shift into the mobs they might not be ready, they are used to the tank running forward not vanishing!

    On boss fights I seem to take a lot less damage after my 2nd rotation than any Warrior tank I have been with and I have been with some in full T3 gear, this confirms in my mind rogue tanks start with less but gain more, although we get hit for less we get hit more often which is also a concern, so a strategic use of cooldowns to combat this in boss fights helps a lot.

    Rogue tanks are awesome vs large infrequent hits and extremely awesome vs magic, vs a lot of small physical or even regular physical damage they struggle, I agree whole heartidly with previous posts with calls to increase a RS parry would help a lot, but to have it balanced. RS should be the best single target tank it has all the rest of the tricks sorted out for one, it is just missing the parry!

    One last little thing, I love it when a tank with better gear says you tank then if you think you can do a better job, pft rogues can't tank and I do, and we complete.

    I love tanking on a rogue, I hope by the time I get up to Greenscale and beyond it is a little more viable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconShadow View Post
    On boss fights I seem to take a lot less damage after my 2nd rotation than any Warrior tank I have been with and I have been with some in full T3 gear

    I agree whole heartidly with previous posts with calls to increase a RS parry would help a lot,

    One last little thing, I love it when a tank with better gear says you tank then if you think you can do a better job, pft rogues can't tank and I do, and we complete.

    I love tanking on a rogue, I hope by the time I get up to Greenscale and beyond it is a little more viable.
    1. Warriors take less damage than rogues. The fact that you've only grouped with bad warriors doesn't change this. If they were using the right specs, they would take less damage than you every single attack.

    2. No. Avoidance is BAD. Having to rely on a random number generator to see if you survive or not is a BAD idea. Case in point: monks/bruisers in EQ2 before they were buffed alot.

    3. Completing a T2 is not a challenge. It's easy, and while you're pulling 1 pack and struggling ALOT on 2 packs, a warrior will pull 3 packs and laugh at them.

    4. It's doable, but if you have a warrior, take the warrior every time.
    I'M RIFTSTALKING YOUR MUM!

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    Plane Touched SiliconShadow's Avatar
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    I have played with warriors in every T2 and every boss who has magical attacks or spike damage attacks I am better at tanking.

    Maybe it is just the warrior tanks? Same warrior tank in 1 main tanks Drowned halls, so not a problem I wouldn't of thought for T2s right?

    But yes rogues do need a lot more heals 75% of the time, and I disagree with the avoidance part chap, purely because that is to do with numbers the more attacks coming at you, the better avoidance becomes.

    I know when I have all my T3 gear T2s won't be problem either but I don't know 1 and I haven't met one Warrior tank who has zero problems with T1 equipment like mine, I have 1 T2 part and a ring from DH not exactly amazing items, but as long as the healer is of equivelent standard as my tank it isn't a problem throughout.

    But that is where the scaling will stop, I know it will I have played with T3 geared tanks in Raids when I go as DPS I can see the numbers they mitigate and I know I am capped on dodge and I have 10% parry too, even 10% more parry wouldn't touch it in an aoe pull if it scales the way I have seen.

    But I love it, I want it to scale, I want to continue playing a tank outside of T2s I want to main tank Raids and I .. Just want to play the character I rolled.

    While you say it is easy chap, just remember not everyone in T2s unless you only group with guild for 30/45 minute runs has the gear, being a warrior and knowing to have battlefield awareness and spotters orders is never a problem for threat, mediocre gear makes trash pulling great.

    Bosses though, why do I seem to have a far easier time than a warrior on a lot of the bosses unless they are heavily geared of course?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconShadow View Post
    I have played with warriors in every T2 and every boss who has magical attacks or spike damage attacks I am better at tanking.

    Maybe it is just the warrior tanks? Same warrior tank in 1 main tanks Drowned halls, so not a problem I wouldn't of thought for T2s right?

    But yes rogues do need a lot more heals 75% of the time, and I disagree with the avoidance part chap, purely because that is to do with numbers the more attacks coming at you, the better avoidance becomes.

    I know when I have all my T3 gear T2s won't be problem either but I don't know 1 and I haven't met one Warrior tank who has zero problems with T1 equipment like mine, I have 1 T2 part and a ring from DH not exactly amazing items, but as long as the healer is of equivelent standard as my tank it isn't a problem throughout.

    But that is where the scaling will stop, I know it will I have played with T3 geared tanks in Raids when I go as DPS I can see the numbers they mitigate and I know I am capped on dodge and I have 10% parry too, even 10% more parry wouldn't touch it in an aoe pull if it scales the way I have seen.

    But I love it, I want it to scale, I want to continue playing a tank outside of T2s I want to main tank Raids and I .. Just want to play the character I rolled.

    While you say it is easy chap, just remember not everyone in T2s unless you only group with guild for 30/45 minute runs has the gear, being a warrior and knowing to have battlefield awareness and spotters orders is never a problem for threat, mediocre gear makes trash pulling great.

    Bosses though, why do I seem to have a far easier time than a warrior on a lot of the bosses unless they are heavily geared of course?
    Bad warriors, or warriors using the wrong specs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paikis View Post
    1. Warriors take less damage than rogues. The fact that you've only grouped with bad warriors doesn't change this. If they were using the right specs, they would take less damage than you every single attack.

    2. No. Avoidance is BAD. Having to rely on a random number generator to see if you survive or not is a BAD idea. Case in point: monks/bruisers in EQ2 before they were buffed alot.

    3. Completing a T2 is not a challenge. It's easy, and while you're pulling 1 pack and struggling ALOT on 2 packs, a warrior will pull 3 packs and laugh at them.

    4. It's doable, but if you have a warrior, take the warrior every time.
    For T1 & T2 content, the above points are not strictly true.

    Rogue tanks are squishy when they start out pulling. That's one of the main reasons rogue tanks have CD abilities that reduce damage on a 2 minute timer. Once they get all their Rogue tanking buffs up and running, the rogue tank is usually better then warrior tanks in the T1 & T2 geared content (noticed I said "geared").

    Rogue tanks do have some issue on certain pulls that warrior tanks do not have but those issues are minor and workable with a party that listens and can follow directions. Of which the biggest issue is on AoE pulls with lots of mobs or mobs spread out.

    The real problem with Rogue tanks is that they just don't scale as good as the warrior tanks. This starts showing up in the T4 raiding content. Which has lots of threads already dealing with it.


    So go ahead and have fun tanking the T1 & T2 content. I do and I like the change of pace and the feeling of responsibility it brings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mavik View Post
    For T1 & T2 content, the above points are not strictly true.

    Rogue tanks are squishy when they start out pulling. That's one of the main reasons rogue tanks have CD abilities that reduce damage on a 2 minute timer. Once they get all their Rogue tanking buffs up and running, the rogue tank is usually better then warrior tanks in the T1 & T2 geared content (noticed I said "geared").

    Rogue tanks do have some issue on certain pulls that warrior tanks do not have but those issues are minor and workable with a party that listens and can follow directions. Of which the biggest issue is on AoE pulls with lots of mobs or mobs spread out.

    The real problem with Rogue tanks is that they just don't scale as good as the warrior tanks. This starts showing up in the T4 raiding content. Which has lots of threads already dealing with it.


    So go ahead and have fun tanking the T1 & T2 content. I do and I like the change of pace and the feeling of responsibility it brings.
    The lack of scaling shows up in T2 expert content, and T1 expert content as well if your warrior isn't a window licker. It just isn't a fatal weakness until tier2 raids.

    In nothing but gear avialable in T2 expert dungeons, my warrior friend was pulling 3-4 packs of trash, surviving and killing it all. In the same level of gear I was tanking one group no probs, but a second group would use all my cooldowns or kill me.
    I'M RIFTSTALKING YOUR MUM!

    I've found that Warriors are like Feminists. They want equality when it suits them, but the rest of the time they want to be treated special.

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    Ive stopped tanking after I started raiding on my rogue since we already had better gear rogue tanks and war tanks.

    I recently started tanking t2s again due to the that single Mark that I need and Q ing as a Tank is much shorter than Q ing as Dps or Support fells like Instant Q if I Q as tank

    Now to come to the point, I am full t3 geared as rogue tank now and while doing t2s with random pugs I found out that certain cleric healing specs that clerics use to heal MT dont work on rogues.

    I do all the standard stuff I usually kl the ranges and caster and move on to the next set of mobs with melee mobs still on me better than pulling 2 or 3 packs and managing our ****ty aggro. This I believe is the best way for a rogue tank to pull.

    And I agree with the OP about rogue tanks being awesome for all round every t2s cant think of any t2 where a rogue tank is at a disadvantage.

    wars have to change spec for trash pulls and boss fight if they effectively want to tank instances. some one said that their war pulled 2 to 3 packs , well tell the guy to use the same spec on a boss I bet hes gonna get hit hard.

    Warriors dont have any CDs maybe void knight, but not in any other spec. they tank and spank put up their buffs and get hit hard. maybe ToL when hes almost dead. Some might say theres **** loads of Cds in war tank spec , but look at all the cookie Cutter spec, don't see most of going deep anything to get the CDs

    where as a rogues has to rotate his CDs to tank effectively take for example the last boss in CC I rotate Side steps and PR every push back so the healer can concentrate on group heals.

    U got a CC breaker which I believe most new rogue tanks wont use.

    Also to point on the OP with better gear Ur Dodge and parry dont skyrocket I use a Mix of sabo/BD to get 30% more dex and some aoe slows. I dont even touch the Dodge cap and the max parry u will ever see as a rogue tank would be 7 or 8 %

    Another random rogue tank rant
    Satk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paikis View Post
    The lack of scaling shows up in T2 expert content, and T1 expert content as well if your warrior isn't a window licker. It just isn't a fatal weakness until tier2 raids.

    In nothing but gear avialable in T2 expert dungeons, my warrior friend was pulling 3-4 packs of trash, surviving and killing it all. In the same level of gear I was tanking one group no probs, but a second group would use all my cooldowns or kill me.
    I actually consider this a design flaw. You're not supposed to be able to tank 2+ groups of mobs at the same time.

    I'm also going to have to call shenanigans on this. No way can anyone tank that many groups unless they are overgeared for that run. I know the T1 & T2 have had their standards lowered but it hasn't been by that much.

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    They should also add a trinket that heals u for a % of damage Dodged would make it Over powered .

    Since its similar to the War tank of O I can only block in non magical boss fight same we can only dodge in non magical boss fights.

    Wars heal of blocks so why cant rogues heal of dodges.

    And with the ****ty proc rates of trinkets now such as chance to hit heal ones there's no trinket that's super awesome for rogue tanks atm, the one that drops in RD Ive say is ****.

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    Quote Originally Posted by satk View Post
    They should also add a trinket that heals u for a % of damage Dodged would make it Over powered .

    Since its similar to the War tank of O I can only block in non magical boss fight same we can only dodge in non magical boss fights.

    Wars heal of blocks so why cant rogues heal of dodges.

    And with the ****ty proc rates of trinkets now such as chance to hit heal ones there's no trinket that's super awesome for rogue tanks atm, the one that drops in RD Ive say is ****.
    This is something I've wondered about as well (the lack of a Roguetank trinket), but finally gave up and assume Trion has chimpanzees working for them. They should have made a Roguetank alternative for the Sliver as soon as they planned to add the Sliver to the game.

    And as far as the 'tanking 3-4 packs of mobs and surviving', I have a Warrior tank and a Rogue tank. The Warrior can arguably handle more of a beating (and requires less work on my part) but 3-4 packs of mobs is going to kill me. It will kill anyone without heals. Anyone with heals can survive it if they have the gear and skill.

    Also, no one said if these 3-4 packs of mobs are elites or not. Raptors in CC are not the same as the naga in AP.
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    my level 50 warr tank has less gear than my 50 rogue tank. actually my rogue is full t2 and my warrior has only two pieces of t2 cause nothing but rogue and cleric crap drops.

    my warrior takes substantially less damage overall. takes mor magic dmg you say? forgotten aboutshock burst, singularity, fusion of flesh, the magic shield in 51 vk? i go immune to all non physical damage for 30 seconds at a time and cant be feared due to he self dispel. echanic

    i dispel dots when healet is lazy. i purge nasties when duracell is being lazy. i interrupt.

    just do as i did - reroll

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    I think really it comes down to a rogue has to use its cooldowns to compete, can't save them for emergencies just for smooth pulls shift > cd > rg > gs > fb (if bd build) making sure to keep up phantom blow/rd at all times.

    My build is designed for T2s with an interupt and more dodge with maybe 1200 less hp, it works, hell I watched a warrior tank the last fight of DSM he went flying like a ping pong ball just because he didn't have that paragon build I think it is with way of the mountain, a RS just shifts back mid flight no worries, the rhino in there, you target the crystal and shadow blitz > rift disturbance to make sure you go the ads and help dps the crystal down, then when its almost dead shift back to the boss.

    There are lots of fights not just in DSM that the rogue tank can do more cleanly, we just struggle with our healing nerf to stay up on the initial pulls, so now I pull with either sidesteps or pr.

    Rogue tanks aren't easy to play, but they are a lot more fun than just putting on battlefield awareness and spamming spotters orders.

    I like this thread I am glad I made it you guys are alright in my book.

    What's everyones favourite T2 fight? I think mine is anything with a knockback because I love plane shifting!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dixa View Post
    my level 50 warr tank has less gear than my 50 rogue tank. actually my rogue is full t2 and my warrior has only two pieces of t2 cause nothing but rogue and cleric crap drops.

    my warrior takes substantially less damage overall. takes mor magic dmg you say? forgotten aboutshock burst, singularity, fusion of flesh, the magic shield in 51 vk? i go immune to all non physical damage for 30 seconds at a time and cant be feared due to he self dispel. echanic

    i dispel dots when healet is lazy. i purge nasties when duracell is being lazy. i interrupt.

    just do as i did - reroll
    No thank you, warriors are slow to play.
    Last edited by SiliconShadow; 08-22-2011 at 11:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mavik View Post
    I actually consider this a design flaw. You're not supposed to be able to tank 2+ groups of mobs at the same time.

    I'm also going to have to call shenanigans on this. No way can anyone tank that many groups unless they are overgeared for that run. I know the T1 & T2 have had their standards lowered but it hasn't been by that much.
    Actually it has. Granted both me and my warrior buddy were T2 geared (so technically we were at the top of the gear ladder for T2s).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazikeen View Post
    This is something I've wondered about as well (the lack of a Roguetank trinket), but finally gave up and assume Trion has chimpanzees working for them. They should have made a Roguetank alternative for the Sliver as soon as they planned to add the Sliver to the game.

    And as far as the 'tanking 3-4 packs of mobs and surviving', I have a Warrior tank and a Rogue tank. The Warrior can arguably handle more of a beating (and requires less work on my part) but 3-4 packs of mobs is going to kill me. It will kill anyone without heals. Anyone with heals can survive it if they have the gear and skill.

    Also, no one said if these 3-4 packs of mobs are elites or not. Raptors in CC are not the same as the naga in AP.
    You think the sliver is good, go check out Arkryon's Mirror (Water Raid Rift).
    3-4 packs was done fairly easily on a warrior. I can usually handle 2 packs on my rogue, but the third WILL kill me. And yes, they're elite mobs, not basic trash. I'm talking DSM trash here. And no, heals wont help enough to tank 3 packs of trash.
    I'M RIFTSTALKING YOUR MUM!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paikis View Post
    1. Warriors take less damage than rogues. The fact that you've only grouped with bad warriors doesn't change this. If they were using the right specs, they would take less damage than you every single attack.

    2. No. Avoidance is BAD. Having to rely on a random number generator to see if you survive or not is a BAD idea. Case in point: monks/bruisers in EQ2 before they were buffed alot.

    3. Completing a T2 is not a challenge. It's easy, and while you're pulling 1 pack and struggling ALOT on 2 packs, a warrior will pull 3 packs and laugh at them.

    4. It's doable, but if you have a warrior, take the warrior every time.

    1. so much less damage its ridiculous. my armor right now is sitting close to somewhere near 6k dont recall exact numbers. our other MT who is a warr has armor over 16k.... tell me how much dmg reduction that is.
    2. i love avoidance and rogues are suppose to be avoidance/absorb(via rift guard) tanks since we cant block. however since we have absolutely no mitigation intially we go splat a lot easier. also our dodge/parry doesnt scale high enough to make us full avoidance to compensate for the lack of mit. soo we are just screwed all over.
    3.kinda refers back to #1. its that mit thing again. reminds me in raid how a warr (not even a well geared one) can hold multiple raid mobs with ease. a rogue will take significantly more dmg though.
    4.since they fixed warr a while back..... everything is better done with warr then any other tank. just how it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeavyMetalLucidity View Post
    2. i love avoidance but rogues are suppose to be absorb(via rift guard) tanks since we cant block.
    Fixed that for you.
    I'M RIFTSTALKING YOUR MUM!

    I've found that Warriors are like Feminists. They want equality when it suits them, but the rest of the time they want to be treated special.

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