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Thread: Rogue - The dieing calling

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default Rogue - The dieing calling

    Yes it's another QQ thread, Rogue is dieing, and every rogue players noticed it.

    PVE Wise - There is 2 viable spec.
    - Sabdancer ( 26/21/19 Sab/Sin/BD )
    - Ranger ( 31/18/17 Ranger/MM/Sin )

    The gameplay of sabdancer is hated by most of players playing it. It's also exploiting some Mechanics that trion "destroyed" on the warrior calling, due to the fact that this kind of mechanism - SLI/Deadly Dance was ruinning the gameplay of this class.
    The Ranger spec is just aids. you pull 1/3 of the dps that a stormcaller would pull on some AOE packs and 1/2 of the dps of a pyro or necrolock in single target.

    I wont talk much about PvP, but the issues are known i guess - if you want dmgs, you spec 51 assassin - 15 infiltrator - if you want some viability in something else than 1x1 - you go hybrid RS or deep nightblade which can make you "warrior-like" - with half less damages and an instant death in case of purge on you.

    Yes, this is another QQ thread, i should have player any other calling than rogue cuz at least, regardless the results, they got many specs viable/fun.

    As a proper QQer, i'll suggest a few things to make my calling a bit more enjoyable.

    Nightblade
    It seems than trion want to make this tree like Hybrid dmgs/survivability - At the moment the survivability is fairly ok as long as you are not getting purged but the damages are really poor.
    Suggestions:
    - Merge Nightrage with Scourge of Darkness.
    - Increase the damage from fiery spike by 100% and increase the scalling of this skill from AP - at least least by scalling points in the NB tree
    - Increase the death damages from Primal strike by 3x OR increase the proc rate to 33% - 66% - 100%.
    - Increase the scaling of Dusk Strike with AP.
    - Increase the scaling of Twilight Force with AP.
    - Increase the scaling of Weapon Flare with AP.
    - Increase the scaling of Fiery Chains with AP.
    - Reduce Slightly Dusk to Dawn damages - Increase his scaling with AP.
    - Make Dusk to Dawn usable in movement.
    - Make the nightblade being able to use abilities while Dusk to Dawn is running.
    - Remove the part where Dusk to Dawn is providing combo points.
    - Reduce Living Flame base damages, Increase the scaling with AP a lot - Make this ability off global Cooldown - Reduce the energy cost.
    - Swap positions between Fell Blades and Smoldering Blades in the talent tree.
    - Make a new 32 points skill increasing the damages of Hellfire blades by 10% + 5% for each points over 32 and increasing the damages of Smoldering Blades by 20% + 8% over 32.

    That should be able to solve some issues with nightblade damages that occurs at the moment.
    If PVP-Wise the damages would be too high - you still can nerf this part

    Assassin
    For this part it's simple. assassin lack of damages - especially PVE-Wise
    Suggestions:
    - Merge Poison Potency & Poison Mastery to have the equivalent in a 3 point skill.
    - Add a 32 Point passive increasing the bleeding and poison damages from assassin - Scaling with the points over 32 aswell.
    - Increase the base/dot damages of Puncture - Make it scale with AP better.
    - Increase the base damage of assassinate - Make it scale with AP a lot better.
    - Increase the scaling of poisons with AP.
    - Increase the scaling of Backstab with AP.
    - Increase the scaling of Serpent strike with AP a lot.
    - Add some kind of ability that would auto-proc the poisons - and increase the water damages from the rogue for the next 8 seconds.

    Bladedancer
    This spec is made by 30% of useless talents - it needs a change.
    Suggestions:
    - Increase the amount of attacks scaling with Deadly dance to 5 - Make the next finisher ability remove the deadly dance effect.
    - Reduce the damage increase of Deadly Dance to 4%/8%/12% per combo point.
    - Reduce the damage increase of Deadly Dance on Non-BD abilities to 3%/6%/8% per combo point.
    - Add some 32 point passive increasing the damages provided by Deadly Dance on BD abilities by 5% per combo point ( 75% ) and on non-BD abilities by 4% per combo point ( 52% ). Make this passive also increasing the scaling with Deadly dance with points over 32 to something up to like 150% for BD abilities - 100% for non-BD abilities.
    - Remove Mass Subdue
    - Remove Dualism
    - Remove Untangle
    - Add some Blade Dancer aspects - something equivalent to warrior bearings - One should reduce Exhaustion a lot - One should Increase damages of offhand for exemple - One should Increase Follow-UP abilities damages a lot.
    - Add Follow-UP Abilities on crit - from offhand / on finishers from offhand / on follow-up from main hand.
    - Rework all dodged-base stuff in BD - and there is a lot of it to build this follow-up system - that would be - in my opinion a lot better.
    - Increase slightly BD AP scalling.

    Saboteur
    This spec need an entire rework - but i'm totaly out of idea for this thing.
    Suggestions:
    - Deadly Dance need to be nerfed - and regardless i think PVE saboteur should have the same amount of damages as it has now.
    - Increase the damages of Blast Charge - at least PVE-Wise. It's nonsense than Shrapnel that is AOE has more than 50% more damage than Blast Charge - that is single target.
    - Increase the damages of Spike Charge to keep up with a Deadly Dance nerf.
    - Increase the damages of Shrapnel Charge to keep up with a Deadly Dance nerf.
    - Damaging bombs are aids - this need a huge rework.
    Last edited by Celay; 08-18-2011 at 06:24 PM.
    Celay - Rogue class leader of Special Olympics (EU) Whitefall

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  2. #2
    Champion of Telara Raiga's Avatar
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    Well I won't comment on PvE because I could care less, But there are a bunch of different Specs that are viable in PvP. You just have to learn how to play them. I personally use a 51 Sinfiltrator(Don't judge me, I was one of the first), a NB variant, 44 MM, RS/Sin, a BD/Sin and a Sab.
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  3. #3
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
    Well I won't comment on PvE because I could care less, But there are a bunch of different Specs that are viable in PvP. You just have to learn how to play them. I personally use a 51 Sinfiltrator(Don't judge me, I was one of the first), a NB variant, 44 MM, RS/Sin, a BD/Sin and a Sab.
    I dont know much about PvP, except that "rogues are practice dummy" we take huge damages and dont deal huge.
    You can ask any player around - if he want to sweep someone quickly, he will target the rogue because they are squishiest than mages at the moment ( And yes, i imply skilled mages with this gimped spec with 7k+ HP, that can self heal and pull decent damages, while being inkillable ).
    Celay - Rogue class leader of Special Olympics (EU) Whitefall

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    World 1st on Matron Zamira
    Europe 1st on Soulrender Zilas

  4. #4
    Prophet of Telara
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    I know for a fact that as a rogue, I generally target Rogues first because they are going to drop the fastest and give us the man-up advantage. There is no denying it.

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple
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    Good that my cleric is almost level 50, after being ousted as a tank, dps being meh and pvp sucking (although admittedly it has always sucked since the imba sab was nerfed), i might have something to do.

  6. #6
    Telaran
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    Truly, most rogue souls need to be entirely rebuilt.

    First, most soul abilities kick in early at the chain and you don't see a lot of benefit from them. Vivacity, turn the tide, general +5% abilites give nowhere near to 5%.

    Abilities that look good for adding +% ap aren't that much better, because AP means almost nothing. (44sab spec, at best 1ap = 0.18 damage on a spike charge, for example.) Puncture, which doesn't grant additional damage from AP is better damage/GCD than Precision strike - same CD, but precision requires a triggering move and gains damage from AP... but not enough to be worthwhile.

    Our followup attacks are limited and even warriors have them better developed - Bladedancer for example could be allowed to feat into chained attacks. Keen, quick, and then different followups for and entire 5point chain to speed up the finisher momentum as at best it's 4 attacks to finisher.

    I'm not gonna go TOO specific because they'll do anything they want...but some ideas.

    Don't make everything so cool down dependant unless it's built to be so and chain them like Bladedancer is obviously intended with the HK crystal. We shouldn't need to plan to abuse DD to slip away and jagged during a fight.

    Instead of 2cp abilities being expensive and specced into, include maybe even 3point abilities on those 10sec cd's if we go higher into a tree. The wariror example of 3sec to a finisher almost every time to our average 4sec to a finisher, when their hit as hard/harder is a great divide over the course of these 20million HP fights.

    I like bard, it needs some tweaking but it's not *broken*

    BD past 25 is broken.
    Sin past 17-22 points is useless.
    NB is typically 11-20 points or so
    Ranger while mostly a pet soul has weak pets at high points that don't scale well. However, the fact the pet damage in addition to the base damage increases - 5% headshot, 15% prey etc - often scales better than melee souls is... a unique interpretation.

    RS has many of it's own threads.

    MM is nothing but cool downs. Without Improved hit on the run and Erradicate, it's useless. Both pve and pvp.

    In my warfront group references to the Rogue Ratio has gotten common... 'We have 6, they have 2... they win.' - or my personal favorite, a black garden of 10 rogues from start against 6 warriors, 2 mages, and 2 clerics. No matter how good you are as an individual, that one is a joke.

    Moves from stealth nothing but a way for a sin to proc cloak and dagger, or a NB to get an extra 20% for a little bit... which, by the way, isn't 20% of numbers with gear. Again, seems these %'s only apply to very low base numbers.

    In addition to the well known problem for all of us that everything, ever, is dispellable and useless, many of which shouldn't be - it creates the further imbalance that other callings recieve more innate abilities - champ heal debuff for example - that we currently cannot compete with as we are now.

    As bonus week looms, I'm looking more to play my R2 warrior and being benefitial more than my R7 rogue who at 1009 valor can still get killed by a warrior in less than 3 seconds.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple Zulwarn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celay View Post
    PVE Wise - There is 2 viable spec.
    - Sabdancer ( 26/21/19 Sab/Sin/BD )
    - Ranger ( 31/18/17 Ranger/MM/Sin )
    Theres another viable pve dps spec, infact I personally do better with it than sabodancer, about 200-300dps higher infact. Though I am mainspec tank (riftstalker) and that soul itself is in pretty bad shape. I do think that there should be more viable dps specs for rogues, however. PvP wise I don't give a ****, don't pvp.

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celay View Post
    Yes it's another QQ thread, Rogue is dieing, and every rogue players noticed it.

    PVE Wise - There is 2 viable spec.
    - Sabdancer ( 26/21/19 Sab/Sin/BD )
    - Ranger ( 31/18/17 Ranger/MM/Sin )

    The gameplay of sabdancer is hated by most of players playing it. It's also exploiting some Mechanics that trion "destroyed" on the warrior calling, due to the fact that this kind of mechanism - SLI/Deadly Dance was ruinning the gameplay of this class.
    The Ranger spec is just aids. you pull 1/3 of the dps that a stormcaller would pull on some AOE packs and 1/2 of the dps of a pyro or necrolock in single target.

    I wont talk much about PvP, but the issues are known i guess - if you want dmgs, you spec 51 assassin - 15 infiltrator - if you want some viability in something else than 1x1 - you go hybrid RS or deep nightblade which can make you "warrior-like" - with half less damages and an instant death in case of purge on you.

    Yes, this is another QQ thread, i should have player any other calling than rogue cuz at least, regardless the results, they got many specs viable/fun.

    As a proper QQer, i'll suggest a few things to make my calling a bit more enjoyable.

    Nightblade
    It seems than trion want to make this tree like Hybrid dmgs/survivability - At the moment the survivability is fairly ok as long as you are not getting purged but the damages are really poor.
    Suggestions:
    - Merge Nightrage with Scourge of Darkness.
    - Increase the damage from fiery spike by 100% and increase the scalling of this skill from AP - at least least by scalling points in the NB tree
    - Increase the death damages from Primal strike by 3x OR increase the proc rate to 33% - 66% - 100%.
    - Increase the scaling of Dusk Strike with AP.
    - Increase the scaling of Twilight Force with AP.
    - Increase the scaling of Weapon Flare with AP.
    - Increase the scaling of Fiery Chains with AP.
    - Reduce Slightly Dusk to Dawn damages - Increase his scaling with AP.
    - Make Dusk to Dawn usable in movement.
    - Make the nightblade being able to use abilities while Dusk to Dawn is running.
    - Remove the part where Dusk to Dawn is providing combo points.
    - Reduce Living Flame base damages, Increase the scaling with AP a lot - Make this ability off global Cooldown - Reduce the energy cost.
    - Swap positions between Fell Blades and Smoldering Blades in the talent tree.
    - Make a new 32 points skill increasing the damages of Hellfire blades by 10% + 5% for each points over 32 and increasing the damages of Smoldering Blades by 20% + 8% over 32.

    That should be able to solve some issues with nightblade damages that occurs at the moment.
    If PVP-Wise the damages would be too high - you still can nerf this part

    Assassin
    For this part it's simple. assassin lack of damages - especially PVE-Wise
    Suggestions:
    - Merge Poison Potency & Poison Mastery to have the equivalent in a 3 point skill.
    - Add a 32 Point passive increasing the bleeding and poison damages from assassin - Scaling with the points over 32 aswell.
    - Increase the base/dot damages of Puncture - Make it scale with AP better.
    - Increase the base damage of assassinate - Make it scale with AP a lot better.
    - Increase the scaling of poisons with AP.
    - Increase the scaling of Backstab with AP.
    - Increase the scaling of Serpent strike with AP a lot.
    - Add some kind of ability that would auto-proc the poisons - and increase the water damages from the rogue for the next 8 seconds.

    Bladedancer
    This spec is made by 30% of useless talents - it needs a change.
    Suggestions:
    - Increase the amount of attacks scaling with Deadly dance to 5 - Make the next finisher ability remove the deadly dance effect.
    - Reduce the damage increase of Deadly Dance to 4%/8%/12% per combo point.
    - Reduce the damage increase of Deadly Dance on Non-BD abilities to 3%/6%/8% per combo point.
    - Add some 32 point passive increasing the damages provided by Deadly Dance on BD abilities by 5% per combo point ( 75% ) and on non-BD abilities by 4% per combo point ( 52% ). Make this passive also increasing the scaling with Deadly dance with points over 32 to something up to like 150% for BD abilities - 100% for non-BD abilities.
    - Remove Mass Subdue
    - Remove Dualism
    - Remove Untangle
    - Add some Blade Dancer aspects - something equivalent to warrior bearings - One should reduce Exhaustion a lot - One should Increase damages of offhand for exemple - One should Increase Follow-UP abilities damages a lot.
    - Add Follow-UP Abilities on crit - from offhand / on finishers from offhand / on follow-up from main hand.
    - Rework all dodged-base stuff in BD - and there is a lot of it to build this follow-up system - that would be - in my opinion a lot better.
    - Increase slightly BD AP scalling.

    Saboteur
    This spec need an entire rework - but i'm totaly out of idea for this thing.
    Suggestions:
    - Deadly Dance need to be nerfed - and regardless i think PVE saboteur should have the same amount of damages as it has now.
    - Increase the damages of Blast Charge - at least PVE-Wise. It's nonsense than Shrapnel that is AOE has more than 50% more damage than Blast Charge - that is single target.
    - Increase the damages of Spike Charge to keep up with a Deadly Dance nerf.
    - Increase the damages of Shrapnel Charge to keep up with a Deadly Dance nerf.
    - Damaging bombs are aids - this need a huge rework.
    i agree, im atm rank 6 rogue every time i been playing mm IN warfront, i keep been geting called a nooob because im mm spec, and they say im useless, but thing is i dont play it bad on mm spec compare to other rogues, then i asked wtf wrong with mm and they all say its weak damage and it useless, well
    im starting to think there right, ever since i got rank 4 bow and RANk 6 i dont see much OF difference in damage thats because mm doesnt scale well with gear well,, this is huge issue because i want to play mm trion need to buff mm i cant play rift with out mm, i like this play style. This sucks NO i hate playing assasin in warfront thats even wrose cerlics spells keep removeing your from invis *** that.

    and no vanish isnt op we need it unless you buff damage AND suv of assasin rogue but still i think we need slip away not to be nerfed. And buff the damage of asssasin and MARKSMAN and sab for pvp. and bard need range buff 20m sucks. need to be 30M.
    markmen shift shot needs damage buff it hits like WET noodles 300 damage with rank 6 bow i mean wtf, i got P6 gear ffs i try out all top mm specs. i want to play mm because i ws best hunter in wow on my server had high arena rating i love playing range class, mm is perfect for my play style plz trion buff it. BUILDERS for mm do way to low.

    Also range needs massive buff pet is so piss weak no one goes ranger. i wish they did something like bm in wow would be nice.

  9. #9
    Plane Walker Radamanthys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    Ever think that English isn't everyone's first language?
    I speak England very best!

    +1 Nightwish.
    -1 StapleNinja.

  10. #10
    Shadowlander
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    Agree with OP. Rogues need a huge revamp.

    just an example: bard.
    Let's compare Bard to chloro?

    bard's range = 20 meters
    Chloro's range =30 meters.

    Usually, when i go full bard with a chloro in the same raid, i pull 1/3 of it's dps and heal. With my cadence ticking at 150 and coda of resto critting at 1200/1300 approx.
    Where's the logic ? Less, less, less ... what's the deal ?

    One support class can stand at 30 m, deal better damage while healing more than the other one. Crappy and poor design / balance.

    Devs need to wake up, cause atm, without deadly dance, and even with it, rogues are only a crappy sub-choice.

    "play sabdancer, ranger, or reroll... yeah". I'll avoid the "reroll syndrom", and cancel, if no dev realize how they screwed the rogue souls.

    And cause i'm good, i'll repeat the simple 'rules' for balance basics:

    - far = deal less (damage / heal)
    - near = deal more (damage / heal)
    - big HP pool = deal less (damage / heal)
    - small HP pool = deal more (damage / heal)
    - high mitigation = deal less (damage / heal)
    - low mitigation - deal more (damage / heal)
    etc..

    Then mix ...

    Looks like atm ppl in charge of balance forgot those basic rules ...

  11. #11
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenieduMal View Post
    Agree with OP. Rogues need a huge revamp.

    just an example: bard.
    Let's compare Bard to chloro?

    bard's range = 20 meters
    Chloro's range =30 meters.

    Usually, when i go full bard with a chloro in the same raid, i pull 1/3 of it's dps and heal. With my cadence ticking at 150 and coda of resto critting at 1200/1300 approx.
    Where's the logic ? Less, less, less ... what's the deal ?

    One support class can stand at 30 m, deal better damage while healing more than the other one. Crappy and poor design / balance.

    Devs need to wake up, cause atm, without deadly dance, and even with it, rogues are only a crappy sub-choice.

    "play sabdancer, ranger, or reroll... yeah". I'll avoid the "reroll syndrom", and cancel, if no dev realize how they screwed the rogue souls.

    And cause i'm good, i'll repeat the simple 'rules' for balance basics:

    - far = deal less (damage / heal)
    - near = deal more (damage / heal)
    - big HP pool = deal less (damage / heal)
    - small HP pool = deal more (damage / heal)
    - high mitigation = deal less (damage / heal)
    - low mitigation - deal more (damage / heal)
    etc..

    Then mix ...

    Looks like atm ppl in charge of balance forgot those basic rules ...
    I hope trion does something with in next patch because right now i feel like unsubing and i cant be fked rerolling

  12. #12
    Ascendant charliekelly's Avatar
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    id add into sab changes that residual shrapnel also applies to blast charge. just makes sense.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    Im barely R4 but have been noticing that damage does not cope well with gear, i went from a blue 26 dps gun to the Uldrich epic 31.5 dps and the base hits only slightly increased.

    I enjoy playing Nightblade, but at times in WF it feels intensely squishy without support, and when healers seem low at 1k health where my burst is suppose to kick in, seems like they heal back up to 4k even iwth fellblades on.

    I also enjoy sabatour it fun waching them trying to click fang, crystal, or flag in WF, but sometimes i look at the soul points and thought why they didnt combine some into one, sabatour itself need to much point dedicated making us less likely to put points somewhere else.

    As of now im Playing MM/eradicate.. seems it only way i can provide some support for my team, when im not busting Retain heat x5 and carpet boming with my bombs for 700 crits...

  14. #14
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabjunkie View Post
    Im barely R4 but have been noticing that damage does not cope well with gear, i went from a blue 26 dps gun to the Uldrich epic 31.5 dps and the base hits only slightly increased.

    I enjoy playing Nightblade, but at times in WF it feels intensely squishy without support, and when healers seem low at 1k health where my burst is suppose to kick in, seems like they heal back up to 4k even iwth fellblades on.

    I also enjoy sabatour it fun waching them trying to click fang, crystal, or flag in WF, but sometimes i look at the soul points and thought why they didnt combine some into one, sabatour itself need to much point dedicated making us less likely to put points somewhere else.

    As of now im Playing MM/eradicate.. seems it only way i can provide some support for my team, when im not busting Retain heat x5 and carpet boming with my bombs for 700 crits...
    Yeah,"burst healing" is a HUGE problem in Warfronts right now. Trion is doing everything they can to reduce burst damage through Valor, higher armor values, more HP, and even ability nerfs in PvP. Problem is that they aren't doing anything to address the opposite of burst dps - burst healing.

    How often is someone on the brink of death and suddenly shoots up to max health in a second? I find it absolutely ridiculous that I can beat on someone for like 8 GCD's and then have it all undone when some scrub hits a single button.

  15. #15
    Telaran Vamoosh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleos View Post
    As bonus week looms, I'm looking more to play my R2 warrior and being benefitial more than my R7 rogue who at 1009 valor can still get killed by a warrior in less than 3 seconds.
    Agreed, I find DPS warriors are ridiculous at the moment. They all seem to have rediscovered 2-h and rip me apart in seconds.
    If I have D2D up, its invariably purged and they blow some ability to become immune to my Dusk Strike/Twighlight force before shifting to me and ripping me a new one.

    At R6 I'm finding I normally play 44 NB/22 BD/0 Inf and with 50% bonus from Dark Malady, Blade Tempo I find my Deadly Strike crits them for less than 1k :'(
    Last edited by Vamoosh; 08-19-2011 at 05:20 AM.

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