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Thread: Rogue Soul Changes Needed

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    Post Rogue Soul Changes Needed

    Blade Dancer:
    BladeDancer’s “mechanic” is a mutually exclusive set of medium duration buffs. One huge disadvantage of this “mechanic” is that it is completely inflexible once you have chosen a buff to use as you become locked into that choice for the duration. In a fast paced game, such as rift, the conditions of the fight change far too often for this to ever be truly beneficial.

    The Deadly Dance/Deadly Blade change is just a buff to other underperforming souls as it doesn’t deal with the poison pill that is at the heart of the bladedancer’s issues.

    Whenever I find myself playing a bladedancer soul I always ask myself the following questions:
    1) Why is Sprint even considered a rhythm? Many other souls have sprint-like abilities that do not block access to those soul’s mechanic.
    2) Why am I excluded from changing my rhythm by exhaustion? The concern of stacking could easily have been countered by making it so that only one rhythm could be up at a time. So casting a new one would overwrite any currently active one. Plus, each rhythm already has its own cooldown. Exhaustion just doesn’t make any sense.
    3) Why is everything being tied to dodge/parry? Of all the things to “proc” abilities over, this is the worst. Assassins, Nightblades, and Marksman have abilities that have a 20-30% chance on hit. Warrior souls have proc chances on crit (~25%). I can tell you that in full P5/6 gear my chances of dodging/parrying is far less than that as well as being completely worthless vs 50% of the classes in the game that use spell abilities.
    Bard:
    The bard soul is a ranged soul. It has nothing to offer in terms of survivability or melee abilities, yet it is still treated as a melee ranged soul as it is stuck with a 20 meter range cap. Warriors in plate and Nightblades have 20 meter ranged attacks … the bard has far less reason to be that close then they do.

    The bards mobility is crippled by the lack of an on-the-move builder. Power Chord is nice and all for after a cadence, but you can hardly say it fills the void. So when the battle is constantly moving the bard becomes nothing more than a buff bot to a group. Even healing clerics can throw out instant damage abilities (waterjet being the most common) while moving between heals. I am not advocating for being able to use Cadence on the move, although that would be awesome, rather a new power chord-like spell that only build a single combo point.

    The lacks of a bloom-like heal, or at least a casted heal, really hurts too. After the enemy has been dealt with there are often lingering effects that are still dealing damage and I can’t tell you how many times I have been killed to a bleed or a dot because there is nothing in sight to heal off of. Motif of Regeneration just doesn’t provide enough by itself.

    The cooldown of Verse of Vitality really kills its usefulness. I would much rather have a bloom-like 10s cooldown single target heal that will be there when I need it, then a 1m cooldown AE heal that is always on cooldown when I need it.
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    I find that when Im barding that half the time the raid takes AoE damage my motifs are 2 seconds from falling off and I do no healing cause Im rebuffing. Motifs need to last longer, they need to do more healing then just equal damage from cadence and their instant heal needs to be on like a 20 second cooldown. 1 min for a low heal is worthless.

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    Motif duration needs to be doubled to 60 secs and Motif of Regeneration needs to scale better via AP gains.

    The OP is also correct in that we're a ranged soul without the 30 meter range. There are no defensive cds in Bard, AT ALL. I mean WoW, we get 500 more HP, surely that's going to keep us alive.

    Street Smart isn't really smart. It's a rather poor defensive design as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
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    IN an ideal world the bard would be reworked from the ground up.

    There is no real play style here and it is a simple button mashing GCD watching play style if that can be called a style.

    Bard should be able to do the job of primary healer if they go 51 points in. Just like a cloro, or at least the same effectiveness.

    Bard should be a class that certain builds in the rogue trees want to dip into to strength what they have.

    The current bard setup just needs to be redone period.

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    Champion of Telara Elric-merren's Avatar
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    I would agree with the problems with bladedancer as it is supposed to be a soul who's fighitng should be like a dance, fluidic and seamless although this is not the case as most of our abilities or buffs seem to break that dance. Like deadly dance it is a nice talent for what it does,but honestly outside of buffing the damage of other souls that are better to specc deeply in it is lackluster for a bladedancer as the other souls gain much more for taking it comparitively. I would rather have deadly dance be that when we use keen, ouick, or precession strikes in seccession we gain a stacking buff to our damage or our ap. THis would make overall damage from bladedancer higher, as well as make the other trees somewhat stronger as well. THough i would make it that once you use a non-bladedancer abbility the buff either is comsumed or reduces in potency.

    Our rythymic movement buffs are both a ncie thing and a hinderance to our soul, since we cann't switch between them on the fly. I would say that you should be able to chance the rythymic movement you are using but that it would only have a duration equal to what wass remaining from the last rythymic movement used. This would make it that you could switch to fit the situation yet not become overpowered. Also bouble coup should allow our twin strike as well as compound strike to hit more targets while it is up. This would give us more aoe capability while our point bladednacer aoe is on coul down.

    I like that our abilities are linked to dodge/parry since it is more fitting to the playstyle of what a bladedancer should be, since they would be searching for opening that would come from a parry or dodge, but this should not be linked to our dodge/parry but to the mob being dodged/parried as the opening would be there regardless. Saddly when it comes to pvp bladedancer is a sub-par soul since it is a face to face fighter that wanted to be hit to procc it's buffs as well as other attacks. Though i would say that in pvp you should nver be able to negate the ability of your target dodging or parrying yoru attacks completely, at best you should be able to recce their chances of dodging or parrying to or so percent to keep the bladednacer viable. Although giving an buff or talent or attack that reduces the hit rating on a target to zero for the duration would help this, but would need to be a short to barely above mid range duration buff, or it could be a stacking debuff from a talent that reduces the hit of the target of your attacks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Korzald View Post
    IN an ideal world the bard would be reworked from the ground up.

    There is no real play style here and it is a simple button mashing GCD watching play style if that can be called a style.

    Bard should be able to do the job of primary healer if they go 51 points in. Just like a cloro, or at least the same effectiveness.

    Bard should be a class that certain builds in the rogue trees want to dip into to strength what they have.

    The current bard setup just needs to be redone period.
    Well, yes, I can see where you are coming from ... but most times devs arn't willing to throw everything away and start over. All we can do is point out the weaknesses and pray that they come up with a solution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taldren View Post
    [/INDENT]Bard:


    The bards mobility is crippled by the lack of an on-the-move builder. Power Chord is nice and all for after a cadence, but you can hardly say it fills the void. So when the battle is constantly moving the bard becomes nothing more than a buff bot to a group. Even healing clerics can throw out instant damage abilities (waterjet being the most common) while moving between heals. I am not advocating for being able to use Cadence on the move, although that would be awesome, rather a new power chord-like spell that only build a single combo point.

    The lacks of a bloom-like heal, or at least a casted heal, really hurts too. After the enemy has been dealt with there are often lingering effects that are still dealing damage and I can’t tell you how many times I have been killed to a bleed or a dot because there is nothing in sight to heal off of. Motif of Regeneration just doesn’t provide enough by itself.

    -Spec into NB, Sab, Ranger, or MM with bard. CP on the move.



    -Bard is not a healer, it is a support. No need for a Bloom. Drop that **** right now. Use a pot/drink.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korzald View Post
    IN an ideal world the bard would be reworked from the ground up.

    There is no real play style here and it is a simple button mashing GCD watching play style if that can be called a style.

    Bard should be able to do the job of primary healer if they go 51 points in. Just like a cloro, or at least the same effectiveness.

    Bard should be a class that certain builds in the rogue trees want to dip into to strength what they have.

    The current bard setup just needs to be redone period.

    Bard is support, not healer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    Motif duration needs to be doubled to 60 secs and Motif of Regeneration needs to scale better via AP gains.

    The OP is also correct in that we're a ranged soul without the 30 meter range. There are no defensive cds in Bard, AT ALL. I mean WoW, we get 500 more HP, surely that's going to keep us alive.

    Street Smart isn't really smart. It's a rather poor defensive design as well.

    - Vybz
    Motif Duration does not need to be touched because that just means more Cadence spam until people actually take damage, and then use CoR. They need to be more effective first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    Motif Duration does not need to be touched because that just means more Cadence spam until people actually take damage, and then use CoR. They need to be more effective first.
    Motifs always fall off at the wrong time, as previously stated. Other than spamming Cadence we're just pressing the same 5 keys over and over and over every 30 secs. I don't really like that as being a Bard's play style. We have to focus too much on the Motifs and not enough on everything else.

    - Vybz
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

  11. #11
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    30m on Cadence would be GREAT!! OMFG!!

    That said, i think Bard is in a very good place, and works very well. The only reason my motifs ever drop is because i get so bored spamming cadence that i forget. Their duration is fine.

    Bladedancer needs some serious work, since everything is based from dodge/parry and if you are getting hit in a DPS spec you are doing it wrong. This makes the vast majority of the soul worthless, and since to tank you basically HAVE to go 51 points into RS you can't even use it as much of a support soul for tanking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    -Spec into NB, Sab, Ranger, or MM with bard. CP on the move.
    -Bard is not a healer, it is a support. No need for a Bloom. Drop that **** right now. Use a pot/drink.
    Healing is support.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyle View Post
    30m on Cadence would be GREAT!! OMFG!!

    That said, i think Bard is in a very good place, and works very well. The only reason my motifs ever drop is because i get so bored spamming cadence that i forget. Their duration is fine.
    If, by in a very good place, you mean at the end of a Riftblades daggers ... you would be correct.
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  14. #14
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    Default well i know 1 thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Taldren View Post
    Blade Dancer:
    BladeDancer’s “mechanic” is a mutually exclusive set of medium duration buffs. One huge disadvantage of this “mechanic” is that it is completely inflexible once you have chosen a buff to use as you become locked into that choice for the duration. In a fast paced game, such as rift, the conditions of the fight change far too often for this to ever be truly beneficial.

    The Deadly Dance/Deadly Blade change is just a buff to other underperforming souls as it doesn’t deal with the poison pill that is at the heart of the bladedancer’s issues.

    Whenever I find myself playing a bladedancer soul I always ask myself the following questions:
    1) Why is Sprint even considered a rhythm? Many other souls have sprint-like abilities that do not block access to those soul’s mechanic.
    2) Why am I excluded from changing my rhythm by exhaustion? The concern of stacking could easily have been countered by making it so that only one rhythm could be up at a time. So casting a new one would overwrite any currently active one. Plus, each rhythm already has its own cooldown. Exhaustion just doesn’t make any sense.
    3) Why is everything being tied to dodge/parry? Of all the things to “proc” abilities over, this is the worst. Assassins, Nightblades, and Marksman have abilities that have a 20-30% chance on hit. Warrior souls have proc chances on crit (~25%). I can tell you that in full P5/6 gear my chances of dodging/parrying is far less than that as well as being completely worthless vs 50% of the classes in the game that use spell abilities.
    Bard:
    The bard soul is a ranged soul. It has nothing to offer in terms of survivability or melee abilities, yet it is still treated as a melee ranged soul as it is stuck with a 20 meter range cap. Warriors in plate and Nightblades have 20 meter ranged attacks … the bard has far less reason to be that close then they do.

    The bards mobility is crippled by the lack of an on-the-move builder. Power Chord is nice and all for after a cadence, but you can hardly say it fills the void. So when the battle is constantly moving the bard becomes nothing more than a buff bot to a group. Even healing clerics can throw out instant damage abilities (waterjet being the most common) while moving between heals. I am not advocating for being able to use Cadence on the move, although that would be awesome, rather a new power chord-like spell that only build a single combo point.

    The lacks of a bloom-like heal, or at least a casted heal, really hurts too. After the enemy has been dealt with there are often lingering effects that are still dealing damage and I can’t tell you how many times I have been killed to a bleed or a dot because there is nothing in sight to heal off of. Motif of Regeneration just doesn’t provide enough by itself.

    The cooldown of Verse of Vitality really kills its usefulness. I would much rather have a bloom-like 10s cooldown single target heal that will be there when I need it, then a 1m cooldown AE heal that is always on cooldown when I need it.

    I have all my rogues speced deep in to these two trees, i see not one single thing wrong with them, my sin-BD-RS does fine as does my Bard-Ranger-NB maybe its just how i play them....
    My MM-BD-RS is one of the fastest shard runners in whitefall granted if i do run into the opposing team inbound with our shard i can if my pots r not on CD run them over and through them in a blink

    Now I Know Why Some Animals Eat Their Young

  15. #15
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    One thing about bard that I never understood ...

    Look at Archons ... all their 'support' spells are either auras or damage abilities. Then look at Bard's Motiffs that are purely buffs, at 1 / 4th the duration, and don't radiate off the bard for their duration.

    My suggestions would be:
    1) Motif of Bravery, Motif of Focus, Motif of Tenacity, and Motif of Grandeur will now deal XX life damage at 30 meters and build 1 combo point. Their durations have been increased to 30 seconds which can be increased by Bardic Inspiration to 1m. Each Motif has a 6s cooldown and requires an enemy target to use.

    2) Motif of Regeneration and Motif of Encouragement durations increased to 30 seconds.

    3) Fanfare of Knowledge and Anthem of Favor swap places in the root tree.

    4) New ability at 4 in the root, Selective Hearing. Causes the next fanfare used to only affect your target.

    5) Cadence range increased to 30 meters.

    6) While in effect, Virtuoso now removes the need for an enemy target to use Codas.

    5) Verse of Vitality - deals xx life damage to a target and up to 5 enemies within 5 meters. Heals you and up to 5 party or raid members for the damage delt. Cooldown 30 seconds. Range 30 meters. Adds 1 combo point.

    6) Added Motif of Bravery, Motif of Focus, Motif of Tenacity, and Motif of Grandeur to the abilities affected by Deafening Music.

    7) Verse of Fascination - Casting time reduced to 0.5 seconds.
    Last edited by Taldren; 08-18-2011 at 11:39 AM.
    Characters: Taldren, Sohwyn, Mythander, Paldren.
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