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Thread: Rogue Contribution in the Highest End Premade PVP

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    General of Telara Virchow's Avatar
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    Default Rogue Contribution in the Highest End Premade PVP

    It was outlined fairly well in a previous post, but the gist is a desire of several in the rogue community to contribute to their high end premade groups beyond, what are widely acknowledged as strong contributors, the following:

    1) Bard/CC
    2) Eradicatebot
    3) Runner

    I believe that with some advanced tactics, a 'baiting role' with a NB/RS/Bard could be an occasional viable strategic option in this setting for a rogue.

    Some organized teams will have a flag assassin squad, but most go in guns blazing from what I've seen.

    I, personally, am very happy with my role. I don't need to top killing blows or top healing done if I know that my eradicating targets led to my teams victory. These three roles aren't sexy. You don't usually flash the screen shots of them, but they win games.

    What I'm understanding, and I could be wrong, is that some of the rogues want a KB/Damage contribution in the specific setting of the highest level of organized combat, that would equal the contribution of these other specs.

    I, personally, believe these contributions are incredible, bordering on absolute necessity for victory, but that is just my opinion, and I am sure others have theirs. I also don't need to be the star of the premade show with the outrageous reputation and screen shots, but I understand also how it's easy to dismiss or minimize your contributions and how that could make you feel.

    It is my opinion that we do have some viable options for the KB/Damage contribution, specifically with assist with MM or NB/BD variants, but that is, again, just my experience and opinion.

    At any rate, discuss.
    Last edited by Virchow; 08-17-2011 at 02:25 PM.

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    the basic problem is that once you have the support rogues in your raid, any additional rogues in the raid will not be as valuable as having any non rogue in that spot, gear and skill the same.

    marksman, sabs, and assassins do not hit for any considerable amount against high valor targets. these souls are incredibly squishy.

    nightblades hit for less, but have some survivability cooldowns, once the cooldowns are up they are very squishy. their best use is trying to get some players to overextend.


    The problem is not that rogues should be dishing out a ton of aoe damage or topping meters/killing blows etc. Rogues just need to be able to deal damage to players that is in line with how squishy they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodbourne View Post
    All I see is your team gettin rolled but managing to win anyway.

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    General of Telara Virchow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by generatedname View Post
    the basic problem is that once you have the support rogues in your raid, any additional rogues in the raid will not be as valuable as having any non rogue in that spot, gear and skill the same.
    I'd disagree with you here.

    Bard: I see the role of Bard in high end premades as multifold. If you consider the buffs as the only major contributor, you may be right, but every bard brings 3 main things to the table:

    a) Buffs
    b) AoE heals
    c) CC

    Since the AoE heals stack, and if coordinated, could have up virtuoso consecutively for a healthy part of the fight.

    Since most battle bard specs have 2 single target CC's and an AoE CC, you double your crowd control and now have 2 fail jails. That's 2 people harassing or locking down up to 4+ people. If you spam the CC early and trigger the DR, they will have burned their anti-CC early, and in 15 sec you will see the true power of the bard. Couple it with timing with any other CC like warrior fears or squirrels (make sure people aren't spamming AoE) and it's GG.

    MM: You can have a viable 5 man with two MM's. The burst from IHR and the cooldown gives you 30s of some of the highest burst dps out there. If you coordinate with the other MM on Eradicate, you become a distance single target dps solution for at least 60 seconds. Will there still be a minute where one MM is eradicating and one isn't doing as much DPS? Yes, but by then you likely have the lead. You can also strip a target clean in half the time if you chose.

    The nice thing about MM's is that everyone knows they're squishy, and you will be focused...giving you an opportunity with your movement/CC breakers to get them to overextend. If you keep your situational awareness and approach from a tangential/side vector, you should be able to see threats in advance and kite appropriately.

    These are my in-game solutions or answers to what I think you're talking about, at least in these two instances. I don't argue the power of the warrior, but the warrior can't do some of the things we can for a team.

    I don't pretend you can play any spec in the highest level of competition, just like you probably can't produce the highest DPS in PvE with any spec.

    If Trion does change some things around (and I like that they do, it keeps the game new and fresh), this may change, but this has been my feel for the current state.
    Last edited by Virchow; 08-17-2011 at 03:20 PM.

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    Prophet of Telara Raynald's Avatar
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    I tend to argue strongly for 44sabo if they are in a properly supported premade. Their ability to "wait" for their DPS by swapping targets after planting bombs (not everyone cleanses), pretty much kill anyone at 40-50% health in one shot, and their bag of tricks - Choking, Chemical, and Slow - alongside the ability to help prevent stealth caps with Landmines and a Trap make them very useful, but also horridly squishy.

    That the standard rotation is also spike and shrap means that your sabo is also pressuring not just whoever is current dps target but also the rest of the enemy raid that is clustering around, which happens especially frequently in Esc. Whitefall and Scion, but can also happen in BG and Dex.

    I would argue that 44sabo`s only truely not-as-useful location is in reg. Whitefall, due to people-spread.

    Looking at footage of the new upcoming pvp map I am also relatively confident that a well-played sabo will be able to run rings around players (Although a MM with retreat can also leap across the gap between the platfroms making for a lulzy escape against all but bullrushers...)
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    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raynald View Post
    I tend to argue strongly for 44sabo if they are in a properly supported premade. Their ability to "wait" for their DPS by swapping targets after planting bombs (not everyone cleanses), pretty much kill anyone at 40-50% health in one shot, and their bag of tricks - Choking, Chemical, and Slow - alongside the ability to help prevent stealth caps with Landmines and a Trap make them very useful, but also horridly squishy.

    That the standard rotation is also spike and shrap means that your sabo is also pressuring not just whoever is current dps target but also the rest of the enemy raid that is clustering around, which happens especially frequently in Esc. Whitefall and Scion, but can also happen in BG and Dex.

    I would argue that 44sabo`s only truely not-as-useful location is in reg. Whitefall, due to people-spread.

    Or
    Looking at footage of the new upcoming pvp map I am also relatively confident that a well-played sabo will be able to run rings around players (Although a MM with retreat can also leap across the gap between the platfroms making for a lulzy escape against all but bullrushers...)
    I have to agree with the 44sab, and say it applies even more to SabDanced blast charges--they crit for 1k, and ignore 50% of the target's armor.
    But if rogues only true excelling roll isn't DPS, doesn't that somewhat let down the class mechanic? When I started playing rift as a Rogue, I wanted to be a cold hearted assassin, dropping people before me before they could react. Now, it seems all I read is "You don't have enough energy to do that."
    ~Quiescent

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    LOL @highest end premades

    never heard of you kid so hate to break it to but if i havnt heard of you your a total insignificant non event
    get back to me when there are ranked wf , arenas or any meaningful pvp and ill laugh the whole time watching you nerds rage that you will never be top 3% in anything ever

  7. #7
    General of Telara Virchow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueTongue View Post
    LOL @highest end premades

    never heard of you kid so hate to break it to but if i havnt heard of you your a total insignificant non event
    get back to me when there are ranked wf , arenas or any meaningful pvp and ill laugh the whole time watching you nerds rage that you will never be top 3% in anything ever
    38 pages of Vybz throwing a hissy fit vs 3 replies on the state of the current state of organized gameplay and/or expressions of expectations of the future roles of the rogues for Trion to incorporate and one troll?

    Makes me sad.

    Maybe Vybz is doing it right, and I'm doing it wrong....

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueTongue View Post
    LOL @highest end premades

    never heard of you kid so hate to break it to but if i havnt heard of you your a total insignificant non event
    get back to me when there are ranked wf , arenas or any meaningful pvp and ill laugh the whole time watching you nerds rage that you will never be top 3% in anything ever
    Oh...this was funny.

    Fact is, I have no clue who you are either. Nor will I likely ever care who you are. The puffed up self importance of that post is just so sad, I almost feel sorry for you. Almost...

    And to be perfectly honest, the original poster's semblance of proper spelling, grammar and thought formulation makes me think much more highly of him than the gibberish you posted makes me think of your likely close to illiterate self.
    ~ Cameela ~
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueTongue View Post
    LOL @highest end premades

    never heard of you kid so hate to break it to but if i havnt heard of you your a total insignificant non event
    get back to me when there are ranked wf , arenas or any meaningful pvp and ill laugh the whole time watching you nerds rage that you will never be top 3% in anything ever
    He made the good point that PvP in this game isnt very serious. Obviously not what the OP was looking for, but threads like this are going to have things like that in them.

    This thread was an attempt to change a QQ thread in someway, but a QQ thread is going to be a QQ thread. There are going to be people that disagree when people are crying that there class isnt good enough. Call this thread what you will there is some of that going on.

    When you question a classes validity you will have people that disagree. If the thread was more of a discussion of "how to be the most effective rogue you can" or something like that that does automatically call into question if rogues are good or not, I think you would get a much better conversation.

    Some threads are created for the purpose of crying about how a class is weak and unerpowered in some way. They are not actually interested in a counter arguement, thats why I personally try not to add any value to those threads. This thread kind of replaced a thread like that.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Make rogues ignore warriors / clerics plate/chain armor raiting a 100% armor pen would put us inline

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    Make rogues ignore warriors / clerics plate/chain armor raiting a 100% armor pen would put us inline
    Its comments like this that invite people to call you bad.

  12. #12
    General of Telara Virchow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    Make rogues ignore warriors / clerics plate/chain armor raiting a 100% armor pen would put us inline
    Maybe what you meant is take something that costs us a lot to get and out of the way, like our highest tier PvP tree talent in the second branch (21 deep in PvP talent tree), and change it to a 30-60 sec buff that converts our attacks to magic-based or ignore armor? Or possibly a 15-30 sec buff that ignores valor?

    I don't think it'd be enough for me to change specs, but maybe that would be what some other people are looking for, specifically as a situational counter that is painful to get.
    Last edited by Virchow; 08-18-2011 at 10:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dahrken View Post
    Its comments like this that invite people to call you bad.
    hahah quiet, troll.

  14. #14
    Prophet of Telara Raynald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    I have to agree with the 44sab, and say it applies even more to SabDanced blast charges--they crit for 1k, and ignore 50% of the target's armor.
    But if rogues only true excelling roll isn't DPS, doesn't that somewhat let down the class mechanic? When I started playing rift as a Rogue, I wanted to be a cold hearted assassin, dropping people before me before they could react. Now, it seems all I read is "You don't have enough energy to do that."
    I don`t disagree that sabdanced blast charges are insanely fun and bring me back to the glory days of sabos one-shotting anyone they managed to land 6 seconds of uninterrupted bomb planting on, but the biggest problem with a sabodancer spec is its low survivability, even more so than a 44sab.

    Due to the need to fire off DD, you need to be in melee. You`re not terribly strong, have no CC break (if you took sin as third three) and very little CC/ohsnap buttons (Sidesteps is great, but still...)

    I approach this with the idea of "Don`t tax your premade healer", who is probably trying to keep your lulzing riftstorm warrior from dying (not that they need it but still....) and 44sabo can pressure, has a huge bag of tricks, and does it all from RANGE. A nice, long, safe range too mind you. It will also usually put you close to the healer who hangs back too, so you can "protect" them from any sins who want to try and sneeze at you funny.

    --

    Also, fail troll is fail.
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    LOL @this typical denial mentality. lets look at these so-called "roles" in premades:

    1) Bard/CC
    i am rank8 and i have NEVER seen decent premade bringing a bard along. why waste the slot with an almost useless bard when you can bring a cleric for 10 times the survivability or a warrior 3 times the dmg and burst? how often do you see barb in WF's btw? there is a reason for that; IT IS CRAP!

    2) Eradicatebot
    only a few buffs are worth removing. again, this would be a waste of limited spot for most games where Eradicate is not needed.

    3) Runner
    this is only useful in WF map, which is ONE out of 4 maps. what about daily quests? World PVP? Guild vs. Guild PVP, ganking? how useful is this spec? for running away when you get owned or running back to your corpse FASTER???

    and no. not "some" rogues want to be on the KB & dmg chart, MOST do.
    Last edited by AnotherAoC; 08-19-2011 at 12:00 AM.

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