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Thread: yet another dubious raid-bard spec

  1. #1
    Shadowlander Harley Bishop's Avatar
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    Default yet another dubious raid-bard spec

    very, very slight variation on the standard bardstalker. yes I know we exist for buffs but its an experiment in being as healy as possible. mages get to do more than just buff, so I want to as well.

    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1McpT.EIdqiqskqz.Vf.V


    Mainly because...

    ...I like the survivability from Shadow Shift, Planebound Resilience, Exceptional Resilience, etc.,
    ...15% sabo Dex = a lot of AP
    ...15% rift AP = a lot of AP
    ...+57 AP from Annihilation (refresh every minute) for even more AP (and more dmg than Coda of Wrath albeit melee range)


    Motifs, debuffs, annihilation; refresh motifs (if needed) then cadences + restorations as appropriate. Redo Motifs, debuffs, and annihilation as needed.


    looking for criticism and suggestions, tx in advance. apologies if this has been posted before.
    Last edited by Harley Bishop; 08-16-2011 at 10:37 PM.

  2. #2
    Soulwalker spyros's Avatar
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    Default looks interesting

    would be curious if you could quantify the "lot of AP" you get from nimble fingers outweighs the 7 pts I'm in Ranger for Eagle Eye and Killing focus. I do like to throw bombs myself, so a couple mixed in don't think would hurt the raid.

    it's farm night so I'll try it out and let you know if i see any big differences.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harley Bishop View Post
    looking for criticism and suggestions, tx in advance. apologies if this has been posted before.
    I wouldn't call this a raid spec. My version of a battlebard stops at 36 pts and then goes into Assassin and BD for the buffs. My battlebard isn't a raid spec either though.

    15% Dex gives very little AP if you are stacking AP as much as possible.

    Since both subsouls are melee, you are triggering off of a lower damage melee weapon. This means, when Power Chord is down, you are SOL for instant cast combo builders.

    Ranger's Predatory Instincts can be used to substitute Annihilate. Ranger also gives you Quick Shot for instant cast combo building needs and allows bard abilities to trigger off of your bow/gun. Lastly, its crit boost talent will not get subjected to DR.

  4. #4
    Shadowlander Harley Bishop's Avatar
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    well, a couple points.

    I've never struggled to be melee as a bard. it's not functionally any more difficult than being a melee dps, added to which I'm more survivable (about 6k health instead of 4.8, plus 6% dmg reduction) and can get out of combat very quickly.

    in regards to the damage, I'm not interested in damage (beyond what Cadence does). I'm interested in Coda of Restoration, and survivability. Ranger has its benefits, but I was concerned (in this experiment) with getting as much AP as possible from soul abilities, and this way definitely gave me the most AP.

    Ofc, I'll be the first to admit that my gear isn't particularly optimised atm. But even so I find that Coda of Restoration crits from 1800-2000 which is acceptable and afaik about what I should be aspiring to. Bear in mind I don't actually bard very often atm and have only recently begun stacking AP properly (sorry, very lazy rogue.)

    I don't need the crit from Ranger, I have lots of crit (and dex gives a nice boost to that too).

    The Ranger buff does give AP, but not as much as Annihilation (about 10 less). Additionally, having the 15% from Dex seemed to give me about 100 AP (I will double check that). But I was hesitant to say so because that indicates my stats.

    basically,

    46 AP from ranger =/= (15% Dex from Sabo + 57 AP from annihilate)

    but if you require more information than that then I will respec and take note of how much AP I gain from this build versus having Ranger, as well as how much Dex and Crit are involved.
    Last edited by Harley Bishop; 08-17-2011 at 01:45 PM.

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    Ascendant Nightwish's Avatar
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    I'd still run with the Bard/NB/Riftstalker build. Great buff to Cadence, great AP gains from Riftstalker, and you don't have to stand in melee to buff your own attacks as well as use dps finishers. Throw in the AP trinket from the Codex rep with a nice slow MH weapon and you're in great shape.

    - Vybz
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

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    Shadowlander Harley Bishop's Avatar
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    *edit*

    about power chord; providing I know the fight, I always know when I should have 5 combo points up. If all the necessary buffs and debuffs are in place, there's no reason not to sit on those combo points until it is appropriate to use Coda of Restoration. If people suddenly take damage and I'm unprepared, there's always Verse of Vitality, Riff, and/or Virtuoso. There's no reason not to use Riff once (if needed) inbetween Virtuoso CDs.
    Last edited by Harley Bishop; 08-17-2011 at 01:53 PM.

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    Ascendant Nightwish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harley Bishop View Post
    *edit*

    about power chord; providing I know the fight, I always know when I should have 5 combo points up. If all the necessary buffs and debuffs are in place, there's no reason not to sit on those combo points until it is appropriate to use Coda of Restoration. If people suddenly take damage and I'm unprepared, there's always Verse of Vitality, Riff, and/or Virtuoso. There's no reason not to use Riff once (if needed) inbetween Virtuoso CDs.
    I couldn't agree with you more. Always keep 5 combo points on the boss and just Cadence spam until healing is really necessary, that's when you'll spam CoR and VoV if needed. Once more healing than that is needed Riff + Virtuoso is your best friend.

    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1Micp.Vh.EIdqiqskqz.V

    That's the build I use for PvE. Haven't changed it since launch add in the codex trinket and you're good to go. 2 spare points for whatever.

    - Vybz
    Last edited by Nightwish; 08-17-2011 at 01:59 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

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    Shadowlander Harley Bishop's Avatar
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    I hate this 5 minute edit limit -.-

    fair enough, I guess I'm just not enamoured with Cadence. I cannot justify the miniscule increase of healing that I would get for Cadence from NB compared to the additional survivability and much bigger boost in healing for Coda of Restoration.

    as someone (Tnanever?) pointed out, Cadence ticks only once or twice on average and for a very small amount (compared to 1200-1800). It just seems much more useful to me to give a bigger burst of healing as needed, rather than small trickles of overheal.

    cause surely even 15% boost on Cadence, you're talking like 30 extra HP... right? pardon me if bad maths.
    Last edited by Harley Bishop; 08-17-2011 at 02:08 PM.

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    Ascendant Nightwish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harley Bishop View Post
    I hate this 5 minute edit limit -.-

    fair enough, I guess I'm just not enamoured with Cadence. I cannot justify the miniscule increase of healing that I would get for Cadence from NB compared to the additional survivability and much bigger boost in healing for Coda of Restoration.

    as someone (Tnanever?) pointed out, Cadence ticks only once or twice on average and for a very small amount (compared to 1200-1800). It just seems much more useful to me to give a bigger burst of healing as needed, rather than small trickles of overheal.

    cause surely even 15% boost on Cadence, you're talking like 30 extra HP... right? pardon me if bad maths.
    It's actally 24% increase for Cadence from Blazing Fury + Unstable State then add in another 15% from the AP gains of RS. If everything is additive then that's a 39% increase on Cadence alone. In PvP, in full rank 6, without NB and only using RS for the AP gains, with the Codex Ap trinket going cadence ticks for near 150+ on HVTs(high valor targets) and my CoR crits for 1400+ at times. Again this is strictly PvP gear. I can only imagine what it would be like with full PvE Tier and some Relics.

    - Vybz
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

  10. #10
    Plane Walker SrFamine's Avatar
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    I am not sure if this subspec is better than ranger or not. ranger is also nice because it gives you the ability to autoattack out of melee. which in turn gets that 50ap proc (OMNOM Gaurdians) up for me. The addition of a bomb isnt actually that bad though.

  11. #11
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    with my raidspec 51bard/8nb/7rs i had today a greenscale 1200 hps. thats fine for a "supporter"
    equip is T3 + 2 Relics
    aoe-heal-crits for 2k and the option to spam this every 2 minutes with virtuoso and 2 extra instant 2k heals each minute with VoV and Riff ist absolutely great if you know the mechanics of the fight.
    capable of healing heroic instances solo and come close in raidhealing to priests and mages.

    with my pvp-spec 31bard/27rs/8rng i tanked whole battlegrounds with most dmg inc and most healed without getting killed.
    equip is R5 + Raidweapons
    flat dmg-reduce by ranger 6%, by rs 6%, by improved rift guard 23%, motiv of tenacy by 5%
    physical dmg-reduce by armor 45%
    resistance dmg-reduce against magic 10% (ignored by focus)
    dodge 13%, parry 6% (ignored by hit)
    valor-dmg-reduce 40%
    temporary dmg-reduce with planar refuge 30%

    thats a lot of mitigration thats very hard to come by. they have to focus and purge you to get you killed.
    and then you have 4 teleports to get away and rebuff while stretching their group so that your team rips them apart.

    lots of fun to play a bard today!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harley Bishop View Post
    well, a couple points.

    I've never struggled to be melee as a bard. it's not functionally any more difficult than being a melee dps, added to which I'm more survivable (about 6k health instead of 4.8, plus 6% dmg reduction) and can get out of combat very quickly.

    in regards to the damage, I'm not interested in damage (beyond what Cadence does). I'm interested in Coda of Restoration, and survivability. Ranger has its benefits, but I was concerned (in this experiment) with getting as much AP as possible from soul abilities, and this way definitely gave me the most AP.

    Ofc, I'll be the first to admit that my gear isn't particularly optimised atm. But even so I find that Coda of Restoration crits from 1800-2000 which is acceptable and afaik about what I should be aspiring to. Bear in mind I don't actually bard very often atm and have only recently begun stacking AP properly (sorry, very lazy rogue.)

    I don't need the crit from Ranger, I have lots of crit (and dex gives a nice boost to that too).

    The Ranger buff does give AP, but not as much as Annihilation (about 10 less). Additionally, having the 15% from Dex seemed to give me about 100 AP (I will double check that). But I was hesitant to say so because that indicates my stats.

    basically,

    46 AP from ranger =/= (15% Dex from Sabo + 57 AP from annihilate)

    but if you require more information than that then I will respec and take note of how much AP I gain from this build versus having Ranger, as well as how much Dex and Crit are involved.
    You will not " get out of combat quickly " against a raid boss in melee. If it turns/spins and cleaves/breath, you will be dead without toughness and tanking talents.

    The boost to damage I mentioned from using ranger vs sab was for fights like Duke L, Johlen, Last boss in GP, and others where their are dps burn phases. Triggering off of a higher damage does help Cadence and CoFury / CoWrath. While most times, Cadence will be overhealing, a tick here or there does help.

    You do not need to stack Crit as a bard. because of the number of targets our main ability heals, 5, getting to 40% while raid buffed is the only crit plateau we need. Over that, stack AP. Ranger allows us to get 40% crit earlier without the threat of DR. Over 40% just helps MoRegen and VoVitality.

    Raid buffed, I have 1014AP, 44% Crit, and seen CoResto hit for 15xx. On the test server when 1.4 bard changes were put in, players had to have over 1000AP to break 1500pt CoResto heal. So I have doubts that adding another 48AP from Sabo's dex talent can make CoResto do "1800-2000".

    I understand why you are talking about Annihilate and 15% Dex, I just do not think it justifies what you are losing and the danger of being in cleave range of bosses. You asked for feedback and we are giving it. I understand what you are trying to do, I just don't agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harley Bishop View Post
    about power chord; providing I know the fight, I always know when I should have 5 combo points up.
    You aren't going to always have 5pts on the boss. You will need to keep refreshing Annihilate. If the boss teleports around, moves out of range, your buff drops. Its one more buff you will need to keep track of and preemptively refresh before damage spikes and/or Virtuoso + CoResto spam.

    You wont be using debuffs in a raid. The Archon will be covering that because there debuffs are instant cast and last 5 minutes. An instant cast like Quick Shot are for when you are running into range. The longer range allows you to have 5 combo points while outside of melee range and outside of bards 20m range. All of the raid instances that I have been to have boss encounters where having longer range is extremely useful.

    I'm not talking about using spamming Power Chord and an instant constantly. Im talking about quickly rebuilding combo points. Of course we have Riff (60 second Cd). Of course we have VoVitality (60 second CD). Both were used and you need to get pts for the next rapidly approaching damage spike. What do you do? Simon Says GP boss's tornado tossed you up, LGS mushroom exploded, knocking you out of melee range, WhirlPool boss in DH is going through his Dance Dance Revolution phase, etc. I can keep naming more.

    I used a Bard/RS/Nightblade spec for a while. I think its ok but I do not think its the optimal raid spec because of raid mechanics and the nature of raid healing. I think Bard/RS/Ranger is -far- more useful and versatile. And I will simply not rely on a melee spec for raids that are dependent on my being in melee range for maximum efficiency.

    My spec uses RS but I just do not use Annihilate. So the difference comes down to

    Ranger
    5% crit
    30m range instant-cast combo pt builder

    Sabo
    48AP
    no combo pt builders

    The crit allows me to reach the 40% crit plateau easier/quicker and without gearing/runing for crit. This allows me to stack AP exclusively from items/rune other rogues and warriors do not want.

    I do agree with you that using talents to buff Cadence is a waste in a raid bard build. Buffing AP and CoResto are what matters because we will not be the only AoE healer. When a damage spike happens, we have 0.1s - 0.5s before a Flourish hits. Having a big healing CoResto (VoVitality if its available) is what matters, not Cadence or trinkets or HoT essences.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheyenne View Post
    I used a Bard/RS/Nightblade spec for a while. I think its ok but I do not think its the optimal raid spec because of raid mechanics and the nature of raid healing. I think Bard/RS/Ranger is -far- more useful and versatile. And I will simply not rely on a melee spec for raids that are dependent on my being in melee range for maximum efficiency.

    My spec uses RS but I just do not use Annihilate. So the difference comes down to

    Ranger
    5% crit
    30m range instant-cast combo pt builder

    Sabo
    48AP
    no combo pt builders

    The crit allows me to reach the 40% crit plateau easier/quicker and without gearing/runing for crit. This allows me to stack AP exclusively from items/rune other rogues and warriors do not want.

    I do agree with you that using talents to buff Cadence is a waste in a raid bard build. Buffing AP and CoResto are what matters because we will not be the only AoE healer. When a damage spike happens, we have 0.1s - 0.5s before a Flourish hits. Having a big healing CoResto (VoVitality if its available) is what matters, not Cadence or trinkets or HoT essences.
    I agree with a lot of what you've said, except for buffing cadence - I think it's worth it. First off physical crit does not affect any healing except for cadence, so 5% crit in ranger is not effecting verse of vitality or coda of restoration. Secondly cadence is smart healing per tick. Coda of restoration hits 5 people for a large amount, cadence looks through the raid and will always heal the people who are the 5 lowest health. It's the type of ability that can really save lives because it's a constant buffer.

    Myself, I have a HK bow and only a relic weapon, I play Bard-nb-rng to get cadence to use my gun for damage. As soon as I get a HK dagger, I'm going to switch to Bard-nb-RS. Once my weapons are equivalent the only advantage of ranger is the ap boost and the damage reduction. The bow attacks, yea you'll be doing something while moving, but have you checked your log to see what? Those bow attacks are something, but not much.
    Last edited by Mayi; 08-18-2011 at 09:37 AM.

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