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Thread: Please Fix Deadly Dance

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple Zenora's Avatar
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    Exclamation Please Fix Deadly Dance

    The more forums I read. The more I get the feeling that there is something wrong with deadly dance.

    One, it forces dps classes to spec in Bladedancer for the buff just to comparable damage via raid. Limiting variety which is something I believe you wanted out of rift.

    Two, its bad for pvp since it auto nerfs anything that doesn't use deadly dance because of the fact that deadly dance exists. This is because of the balance between pvp and pve. If you buff classes to do more damage for pvp they are also being buffed for pve. Which causes the issue that damage output needs to be looked at in two lights one the damage it does without deadly dance and the damage it does with deadly dance.

    Three, it nerfs pure ranged builds because they can become hybrids that now do much more dps.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This being said what to do with it?
    Well I've seen several solutions that should viable.

    Move Deadly Dance up the tree, was one solution.

    Second, was debuff the damage boost it gives to other souls.

    The Third option was to make it a scaling ability with the number of talent points spent in the Bladedancer soul.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This all being said I believe strongly unless something is done about deadly dance there can be no balance among rogues.

    I hope that I'm not alone in this but I would like something to be done sooner rather than later because as it stands this single talent is having adverse effects to the entire rogue class. I feel that it diminishes the value of rogue play as a whole.

    I realize that making this change is going to require a large effort because the change will require some drastic changes to rogue souls; so rogue dps can stay competitive with the other classes. I can wait till 1.5 for this to be fine tuned on the PTR. I would just like to know something is being done to fix this issue.

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    Zenora
    Last edited by Zenora; 08-15-2011 at 07:16 PM.

  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara Fiskerton's Avatar
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    Every spec is also forced to go 17 assassin, yet no one mentions it at all. We should fix that too

    On a more serious note: Deadly Dance and Deadly Strike aren't what's broken; it's that every other finisher is **** right now. Deadly Dance is the only thing keeping rogues in the running with warriors and mages right now, and with the way things are going even clerics. To nerf it would be to kill Rogues. We already can't support as well as archon, tank as well as warrior and now dps as well as anything? RIP!
    Last edited by Fiskerton; 08-15-2011 at 07:23 PM.
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  3. #3
    Prophet of Telara
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    I agree that a change needs to take place so that it isn't "required" for all Rogues to compete. That being said, nerfing it isn't the answer. Even with this ability, Rogues are barely keeping up with other classes. In PvP, they are actually falling way behind damage wise for melee classes.

    Trion took a very small step in the right direction by buffing finishers for NB/Assassin, but it wasn't near enough. Our CP builders hit for significantly less than other classes main attacks, and we gotta do many more of those to get to a finisher than say, a Warrior. All melee classes need to be brought up to the BD level, and ranged Rogues need a buff so they don't rely on a melee tree.

    THEN Deadly Dance can be moved later in the tree so it can't be stacked with the other buffs, creating a possibly OP situation.

  4. #4
    Champion ComaEtilico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiskerton View Post
    Every spec is also forced to go 17 assassin, yet no one mentions it at all. We should fix that too

    On a more serious note: Deadly Dance and Deadly Strike aren't what's broken; it's that every other finisher is **** right now. Deadly Dance is the only thing keeping rogues in the running with warriors and mages right now, and with the way things are going even clerics. To nerf it would be to kill Rogues. We already can't support as well as archon, tank as well as warrior and now dps as well as anything? RIP!
    exactly... if u really want to reduce the effect of DD (and of the 17 sin point as noted) u first have to give other finisher a reason to be used... than u can nerf DD... actualy even the new passive to Final Blow and Blazing strike doesn't hit the spot... DD is still the only finisher u want to use if u need to reach a warrior dmg (that are those we fight with for the same slot as melee dps in raid)


    also for PVP it is not true that build are so dependandt on DD as much as they are for PVE... DPS is not the real key for PVP fight... burst dmg is much more usefull against player that can heal themself/be healed... this is also proven by MM that are really fine in PVP while they sux in pve due to teir lack of sustained mg and so low dps while pretty strong on burst dmg dureing their CD...


    that said... it is true that is sad that every PVE build MUST have 17 point sin and DD (at least every melee build) but to achive a greater variety of build we need to have a lot of finisher/builder reworked to be able to achive a dps as close as what we have now with sabdancer as possible without those skill... and actualy this is impossible... (non DD build parse AT LEAST 300 point less than sabdancer... and warrior... AT LEAST!!!)
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  5. #5
    Shield of Telara
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    If they want to fix rogues, they should add more abilities that are not on a global cooldown. Other than Serpents strike which requires you to go 51 points into assassin, a couple in blade dancer which require you to dodge(which is useless in pve), there aren't really any damage dealing ocd abilities.

    Warriors are so good in PvP(and pve) because they can drop so many attacks that are off the global cooldown that their burst damage is stupid(looked at my combat log, some warrior hit me 12 times in 3 seconds).

    I agree that it's lame that basically any class to be effective in PvE basically has to have deadly strike to do it... but I think adding some more abilities that aren't on the global cooldown would help as well.
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  6. #6
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComaEtilico View Post
    exactly... if u really want to reduce the effect of DD (and of the 17 sin point as noted) u first have to give other finisher a reason to be used... than u can nerf DD... actualy even the new passive to Final Blow and Blazing strike doesn't hit the spot... DD is still the only finisher u want to use if u need to reach a warrior dmg (that are those we fight with for the same slot as melee dps in raid)


    also for PVP it is not true that build are so dependandt on DD as much as they are for PVE... DPS is not the real key for PVP fight... burst dmg is much more usefull against player that can heal themself/be healed... this is also proven by MM that are really fine in PVP while they sux in pve due to teir lack of sustained mg and so low dps while pretty strong on burst dmg dureing their CD...


    that said... it is true that is sad that every PVE build MUST have 17 point sin and DD (at least every melee build) but to achive a greater variety of build we need to have a lot of finisher/builder reworked to be able to achive a dps as close as what we have now with sabdancer as possible without those skill... and actualy this is impossible... (non DD build parse AT LEAST 300 point less than sabdancer... and warrior... AT LEAST!!!)
    Actually, for melee builds, it is just as important for PvP. Deadly Strike + Serpent Strike is the best burst you can get currently. With no reliable heal debuff, this becomes key in dropping any class that can heal itself (IE, almost all but Rogue). This is the kind of burst that should be inherent in the Assassin class if they aren't going to give a decent heal debuff.
    Last edited by Calo; 08-15-2011 at 09:23 PM.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple Zenora's Avatar
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    The problem I see is they can't boost the damage of combo building abilities because of Deadly Dance. that being said, how much does a finisher need to do before its useful? 5k, 8k 20k? Buffing Finisher is not the only answer(and can't be the right answer by itself to the issue). I know I can hit 4k(not maximized) with final blow on the dummy but my combo generating abilities might as well be trash in comparison. Being able to hit this hard with a finisher still dwarfs in comparison to Deadly Strike + Deadly Dance combination, This is the reason for the Deadly Dance debuff, because of the way it stands now buffing combo generating abilities is only going to strengthen Deadly Dance and ruin other finishers. By nerfing Deadly Dance one possibility being the way I proposed in my changes to BD via make none blade-dancer abilities not scale as well with Deadly Dance. Would give the ability to boost other souls without OPing. The only problem following that would be making the BD tree useful after the nerf. One more thing, if Finishers and Combo point generating abilities are boosted in damage NB should become more valuable and possibly fill some of the gaps that Sin gives. I'm not saying that 17 Sin won't still be a normality but at least the DD change should give more variety in rotations, souls, and finishers.

    Fixing Deadly Dance is not going to be an easy under taking and doing one change to the rogue class is not going to solve the overall issue. I can hear the OP screams now from how much a finisher will need to be boosted to make it viable.
    Last edited by Zenora; 08-15-2011 at 09:32 PM.

  8. #8
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    Move deadly dance up say above 38 points in bladedancer.
    Move magnify pain up to say 32 points in assasin and with every point spend over 32 increases magnify pain by one percent.

  9. #9
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    Also they should give something live for everytime you dodge an attack it heals you for say 10 percent weapon damage.This is for bladedancer.
    Would love to see poison malice scale with attack power and also affects the healing portion of leaching poison not just damage.

  10. #10
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    also upgrade to expose weakness.
    maybe put it not on gobal timer and have it last say 1 min with 1 min cooldown so we don't have to keep spaming it. also increase the damage a bit 16 is not good enough.

  11. #11
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    Talent points don't go above 31. After that is just root abilities, so moving magnify pain/deadly dance above 30 is not a viable fix. I want DD fixed, not just moved higher in the tree.

    I would love to see expose on a ~20-30s cooldown and moved off the gcd, though. That could be interesting.
    Last edited by Caelan; 08-15-2011 at 09:53 PM.
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  12. #12
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caelan View Post
    Talent points don't go above 31. After that is just root abilities, so moving magnify pain/deadly dance above 30 is not a viable fix. I want DD fixed, not just moved higher in the tree.

    I would love to see expose on a ~20-30s cooldown and moved off the gcd, though. That could be interesting.
    That would be a huge nerf to PvP Rogues. That's how we keep the very few targets that can't heal themselves IN combat so that they can't heal up before we re-engage...

    How about just making Enduring Brew into something...useful?

  13. #13
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    pretty much every good pvp spec forgo's deadly dance.... very few use it infact
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  14. #14
    RIFT Guide Writer Gyle's Avatar
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    You are all obviously not raiding rogues trying to compare DPS with warriors. A NERF? are you all high? Are you sure the OP isn't a warrior? The ONLY reason rogues are even close to useful in raid DPS is BECAUSE of Deadly Dance, if our skills did not do DOUBLE their intended damage, AND crit harder and more often because of 17 Sin we would be out DPS'd by pets. If you get DD and 17 sin nerfed you may as well delete your rogue because you will be absolutely worthless.

    "But they can just buff everything else to make up for it"

    You really think that is going to happen? With no DD you have no Sabdancer, without Sabo, you have no AoE at all unless you go Ranger, which will blow because you will not have the crits from 17 sin to boost its damage. So for anything with an AoE component, you will be FORCED into ranged Sabo, which will also suck because it wont have the crits from 17 sin. So now rogue DPS in any 5 man content will be laughable, since no one CC's anything and you just AoE it all down, in fact since you pretty much AoE everything down in Raid Rift's too, you are uselss for that now.

    Single target now you might think would be viable, except that with no DD you will be required to go probably 51 point SIN just to be able to break 1200 dps, and you will still have to use NB for Fiery Spike, or put points into RS and teleport CONSTANTLY just to try and keep your buffs up. You will do nothing except reduce the ability of people to have any variation at all in their specs.

    As of right now in full raid gear with a relic i could make almost any build i want, throw in DD and/or 17 sin and still put up acceptable numbers. Having important DPS skills low in support trees allow for build diversity, moving them higher is going to pigeon hole you into only deep builds to get acceptable DPS. Yes right now deep builds are not very good, because they will not be able to take advantage of these skills, GOOD. I have no desire to be required to go 51 points into a soul to get viability, it defeats the entire purpose of having 3 souls to chose from.

    You really would like for Trion to nerf THE ONLY 2 way to make a viable rogue build, and just HOPE that they re-balance absolutely every skill in every single soul tree in the rogue calling just to make up for it? If you idiots get your way we will all be 51 SIN or 51 MM with zero AoE, zero variance in build allowed, and no utility of any kind. And i will roll a warrior so that i can raid, cus rogues surely will not be welcome, as we barely put up acceptable DPS as is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobsterzilla View Post
    pretty much every good pvp spec forgo's deadly dance.... very few use it infact
    Rogues are saddled with too many choices, most of which suck. The Sindancer pvp build is for killing other melee and mages. I've killed countless "OP" warriors with it and bleed rogues never get a chance to put up any bleeds, and this is against targets of equal gear. Unskilled or undergeared mages also don't have a prayer against it.

    I can't find a build (including 51sin/15inf) that will kill an equally geared (p7) cleric in whatever that spec it is they all went to since healing got nerfed. You can hit em as hard as you want, as long as you want. Anathema, fell blades, master Huntsman... none of that crap does anything to help. I think marksman is the closest you can get, but it comes up short as well.

    I am talking about open world, mostly 1v1 situations and I know the game isn't balanced around that. But It's pretty silly there's a class who can spec a certain way that there's literally nothing I can do but beg them not to kill me. It's gotten that way with riftblades as well since they nerfed parachamps. You say bleed kite them? Rogues don't "kite" anything unless they're marksmen, who die with one swing of a riftblade's bat. (k maybe it's 3 swings but you're getting hit 14 times in those 3 swings).

    Another week to p8 and Rift pvp is just a bad nightmare that has finally ended. On to PVE with my 4pc BiS w/crystal from doing pvp. (fantasic idea by the way, Trion)
    Last edited by Geistcreeper; 08-15-2011 at 11:28 PM.

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