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Thread: Rogue tanks. The questions you've all heard.

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Rogue tanks. The questions you've all heard.

    BUFFS! Will they ever come? Threat isn't TOO big of an issue, but depending on if there's some really geared burst DPSers in group they may pull aggro. Mitigation is the obvious issue. And I couldn't tell you a single rogue tank or healer that would disagree. I just want to know, are there ANY plans to do something to buff rogue tanks? Hope I get a reply.

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    Champion Naria's Avatar
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    If a DPS is more geared than you, be prepared for the possibility of them pulling aggro. That's not Rogues being underpowered, it's just how it works logically.

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  3. #3
    Prophet of Telara Fiskerton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naria View Post
    If a DPS is more geared than you, be prepared for the possibility of them pulling aggro. That's not Rogues being underpowered, it's just how it works logically.
    Apparently not because warriors can hold aggro with gear 1 full tier below dps gear (in 5 mans at least, so that's 3 dps. haven't seen a tank a full tier lower in a raid)
    Last edited by Fiskerton; 08-12-2011 at 07:22 PM.
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    Soulwalker
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    decently geared warrior tanks outclass rogue tanks in every fight now.

    i have tanked every boss in the game up to hammerknell, but rogues cant really tank the first boss in hammerknell due to the stacking armor debuff.

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naria View Post
    If a DPS is more geared than you, be prepared for the possibility of them pulling aggro. That's not Rogues being underpowered, it's just how it works logically.
    Logic fail. Improving tank gear does not improve aggro generation. A tank in blues will generate almost the same threat as a tank in full raid gear.

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    Rift Disciple Zenora's Avatar
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    It is a numbers game. The reason rogue tanks fail is because our physical reduction is crap. Why is it crap? One rogue armor values scale poorly. Our shield is a flat reduction. Dodge is slightly above average, and parry is nothing special. The point of all this is clear as bosses begin to hit harder a rogue begins to fall greatly behind due to poor scaling. We have hp but really does having hp make you a tank no. You could have all the hp in the world say 30k for example. If the mob is hitting you for 45k dead is still dead. or for instance the blows where 10k per but your healers could only heal you for 6k your going to run out of hp at some point and you die. Tanks live because they have mitigation wither it be Armor, Blocking, Shielding of some kind or Avoidance. Without this your just another dps but your dps is really bad.

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    Rift Disciple Zenora's Avatar
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    I doubt we're going to get a reply directly from the devs. All we can do for now is be patient and hope the next patch is some kind of improvement.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Logic fail. Improving tank gear does not improve aggro generation. A tank in blues will generate almost the same threat as a tank in full raid gear.
    Wut?

    Improving tank gear absolutely improves threat generation. More AP and crit will mean that your attacks will hit harder, ergo more threat. The biggest improvement you will see though will come from improving the Damage Per Second on your weapons.

    I remember when i was a fresh 50, I was trying to hold agro against a warrior who had basically the best gear he could get for DPS (he didn't raid) but no matter what I did, he would pull the target he was beating on off me, and probably one or two more as well. I was running the dirk from Totek and the sword from Konstantine at the time, two good tanking weapons from T1 instances. I ran a pile of T2s and managed to get myself two Titanslayers. I can hold threat from anyone in my guild now, including that warrior.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenora View Post
    It is a numbers game. The reason rogue tanks fail is because our physical reduction is crap. Why is it crap? One rogue armor values scale poorly. Our shield is a flat reduction. Dodge is slightly above average, and parry is nothing special. The point of all this is clear as bosses begin to hit harder a rogue begins to fall greatly behind due to poor scaling.
    This. We actually have close to the worst avoidance, depending on spec. Rift Guard makes up for not having block (flat 35%, instead of a chance to reduce damage) but nothing we have can make up for warriors are clerics having 3 times as much armor. Thats where we fall down. There have been a number of suggestions made to fix this, I'll list some of the ones I like:

    1. Rift Barrier stacks with Rift Guard. This would give us another flat 15% reduction and make those 4 points not feel like a complete waste of space. Currently they're only useful for the first 3 seconds of most fights... or not at all if chain pulling. It would also put us at the top for magical mitigation. Something that we're apparently supposed to be.

    2. Have guarded steel bumped up to 100%, and work on your BUFFED armor amount, instead of your BASE armor amount. (or just make it 300%) At my gear level, GS gives me an extra 1200 armor, which amounts to 5% physical reducetion.

    3. Make Rift Guard scale. SUggestions have included scaling with AP/Crit/END/WeaponDPS.

    4. Change Planar Switch to give us a stacking buff each time we dodge, each stack gives 3% less physical damage, stacks up to 10 times, 20s duration.
    Last edited by Paikis; 08-12-2011 at 08:32 PM. Reason: Added content
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    Rift Disciple Tnanever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Logic fail. Improving tank gear does not improve aggro generation. A tank in blues will generate almost the same threat as a tank in full raid gear.
    I almost want to make that my new signature for how terribly terribly wrong it is.
    Last edited by Tnanever; 08-12-2011 at 11:00 PM.
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  10. #10
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    except dunsparrow is right. all rogue threat is damage based. you would need a far more substantial increase in key dps stats to see a meaningful increase in threat.

    warrior threat is based on their endurance. it scales very well

  11. #11
    Shadowlander
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    Our mitigation is indeed rubbish compared to clerics and warriors. Even our avoidance is rather low by comparison. I run with the bonus 5% dodge from bladedancer and i still have more dodge when i am in my 44 sab build.

    You only have to compare Guardian Phase to Mein of Leadership to see how much of a disadvantage rogues have. And clerics dont have to spend the first 10 seconds of combat getting the rest of their mitigation in place.

    Trion please look at rogue tanks.

    Oh and the fact that the only T2 rogue tanking gear in the game that doesnt come from the T2 vendor is BLUE is pretty fail. I dont think there is a single T2 leather epic with toughness on it.

  12. #12
    Plane Touched
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    It does seem slightly odd that mien of leadership by itself is 450% threat generation, 90% endurance, up to +151% armor, and it's only downside is -damage to non-justicar abilities

    while guardian phase, improved guardian phase, guarded steel, and improved guarded steel adds up to 140% threat, 60% endurance, 90% armor, 50 resistance, and a -30% damage done debuff

    the 50 resistance is pretty nice but it falls way short in every other way to a class that has a lot higher base armor to begin with and has ugly downsides too and requires maintaining a short duration buff.


    Kinda hoping they up the value on guardian phase and just change guarded steel to do something else. It's really lame that all the riftstalker finishers are just self buffs. Some variety would be nice
    Justicar and Riftstalker really need an answer to spotter's order. Not just the threat but the actual spotter's debuff itself is just nuts and not having it actually hurts the raid, what other tank has a single skill doing 3500 raid dps while producing ridiculous aoe threat too??

  13. #13
    Prophet of Telara StealthStalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salami View Post
    decently geared warrior tanks outclass rogue tanks in every fight now.

    i have tanked every boss in the game up to hammerknell, but rogues cant really tank the first boss in hammerknell due to the stacking armor debuff.
    Hm... I'm not sure you'd call what I do during that then, if it isn't tanking. Admittedly it isn't as good as a Warrior, but Murdantix so far is indeed tankable.
    Last edited by StealthStalker; 08-13-2011 at 04:38 AM.

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  14. #14
    Shield of Telara Hellebron's Avatar
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    Murdantix is tankable by rogue for sure, but you almost need to overstack toughness as the crits will just hit you for too much when you dip below 200. Wars don't have to bother; they don't take enough for it to matter.

    If you have a War available though, why use a rogue tank? Giving your healers a challenge?

    Sicaron however, well, I doubt we will ever see that tanked by a rogue unless changes are made. Even Matron, if you have a War tank available and use a rogue, you are shooting yourself in the foot.
    Last edited by Hellebron; 08-13-2011 at 05:25 AM.

  15. #15
    Plane Touched Bart151's Avatar
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    I'm concerned with the fact that on my warrior and cleric tanks can go walse around and destroy stuff at 50 with ease in barely any gear and take little to no dmg yet my rogue who's full t2 + some raid gear + some new set tank pieces feel like I'm a wet noodle and get worked if I pull more then a few mobs and ontop of that takes forever to kill them...

    Yea the class definitely needs some attention given to it. Hes fun but definitely feels in the underpowered department

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