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Thread: Riftstalker Tanks - Questionable Mechanics?

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Riftstalker Tanks - Questionable Mechanics?

    I am the current main tank for my guild. As a rogue, I have tanked (and cleared) all the content up until now including GSB, RoS, GP and DH. At the same time, I have also main tanked the four bosses my guild has killed in Hammerknell to date: Murdantix, Matron, Zilas and Prime. All of these bosses I tanked with relative ease, save the high damage taken due to the rogue tank's lack of physical mitigation, and even bosses such as Matron and Zilas were manageable to the point that we don't need to stack a bunch of purifiers and use cool-downs to keep me alive. In fact, I was even able to effectively tank Matron while she had 30 stacks of her buff (minus the fact that I was being hit for ~9k).

    Fully raid buffed, and potted, I have roughly 15400 health, 31.4% dodge and 12.6% parry.
    I am fully T1 raid geared and now have a couple pieces of Hammerknell loot.
    I use the following potions every raid on every boss fight/attempt. They're super expensive, but more than worth it:
    http://telarapedia.com/wiki/Mighty_Agility_Serum
    http://rift.zam.com/en/recipe/481188...exterity-Serum
    I use the following average 51RS/7RNG/8BD spec and I have had absolutely no problems with it to date:
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1M...ItIuqdRkkR.x0d

    While at this point I agree with all the rogues saying we need to be buffed slightly, I also need to question some of the things the people on these forums have come to agree upon as being "the best" or as "confirmed" when, in reality, I have found them all to be questionable or a load of bull. As such, I feel it is my duty to not only question my findings, but also clarify for the rogue community, as a whole, why rogues might not be as bad off as many believe. I found two main problems with the information being spread around on these forums thus far:

    1. I have, on multiple occasions, come across the statement that there is a "20% cap" on dodge. While I haven't been reading these forums regularly, I have seen absolutely nothing proving there is, in fact, a cap at all on dodge. At the same time, I do know there is a cap of 20% on parry, but the same cannot be said for dodge as I have seen higher dodge percentages grant better results on physical based bosses, on many occasions, first hand.


    2. I have also seen many people state that the "51RS/7RNG/8Bard" spec is now the best spec for riftstalker tanks within hammerknell. I can understand that while there is a general consensus for the 20% dodge cap floating around this spec may seem like the #1. I also understand that, while considering a dodge cap, this build would result in the highest amount mitigated with shields due to the high health. I feel that, since I have seen no proof showing otherwise, there is no dodge cap and, as a result, the "best" spec would be one using bladedancer in place of bard.

    My question is this: Where did this 20% cap originate from? Was it stated by a GM? Is there even any proof showing that there is a cap as there is for parry? and, keeping the possibility of a dodge cap in mind, Would the 51RS/7RNG/8Bard spec become obsolete were it proven that there is no dodge cap?


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I would also like to show the proof I have personally obtained which backs up my belief that there is no dodge cap. Below is a link to Google docs showing one of our Zilas kills last week with a breakdown of the entire fight including all the times I dodged, parried etc. It also includes the base damage I was being hit for without absorbs along with the amount of said damage I absorbed afterwords. Furthermore, there is another tab that includes a breakdown of the entire fight with all of the incoming healing alongside the outgoing damage.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0

    For those who are too lazy to click, I have put the statistics of the overall fight below with the amount of attacks made by zilas and the amounts/percentages of those I dodged/parried/immuned.

    TOTAL ATTACKS: 174
    DODGES: 71
    PARRY: 17
    MISSES: 4
    IMMUNE: 2
    DODGE %: 41%
    PARRY %: 10%
    MISS %: 2%
    IMMUNE %: 1%

    To me, these statistics basically show that the "dodge cap" is wrong, but I am willing to admit I am incorrect if anyone can show me otherwise. I also have several more of these, with a breakdown of the entire fight, for our other Zilas, Murdantix, Matron and Prime kills. I'll post them if the need arises. If anyone has any answers to any of my questions, please post along with any proof you can find!

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    Did you at any time use Side Steps or the new trinket with +10s of Dodge/Parry?

    As you have 41% Dodge but you stated that you actually have 31% Dodge rating, I can't really understand that parse mathmatics.
    Last edited by Laeo; 08-12-2011 at 05:12 PM.

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    I used side steps one time, and that was on the opener of the fight. I didn't have to use it again after that. I also don't have the new trinket.

  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    Yes, I was guessing it was there - as it is nothing but dodges.

    I deleted where I guess it stopped and looked again to find it at about 39% Dodge rating - again 8% above where your gear says you are. Leaving me with the conclusion something is wrong with the math - somewhere. It's good enough proof that there's no 20% cap - but something else is definitely wrong or going on.

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    There will always be that RNG aspect of dodge/parry. Such as how I was only parrying 10% of the time with over 12% parry. The same can go for dodge where I just so happen to dodge a bit more often.

  6. #6
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    There is a dodge rating cap. You can get 20% dodge rating through gear, skills and buffs before reaching the cap. Once you reach 20% dodge through dodge rating, additional +dodge will grant nothing. Same goes for parry.

    Bladedancer buffs do not give dodge rating, they give a fixed percentage of dodge and therefore do not count toward the cap. This means the 10% dodge you get from 8 bladedancer is essentially "free" as it does not put you toward the cap, and thus I agree with you that your spec is still best.

  7. #7
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    There is a dodge rating cap. You can get 20% dodge rating through gear, skills and buffs before reaching the cap. Once you reach 20% dodge through dodge rating, additional +dodge will grant nothing. Same goes for parry.

    Bladedancer buffs do not give dodge rating, they give a fixed percentage of dodge and therefore do not count toward the cap. This means the 10% dodge you get from 8 bladedancer is essentially "free" as it does not put you toward the cap, and thus I agree with you that your spec is still best.

    I see, and is that a 20% hard cap? or a soft cap?

  8. #8
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grid View Post
    I see, and is that a 20% hard cap? or a soft cap?
    Hard cap.

    The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

  9. #9
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Hard cap.

    The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.
    The parry hard cap shows when you hit it in your character sheet, if there is a dodge cap it appears to not show or the topic creator would not see the number he has.

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    Well that answers my questions, though I still have to say that there really isn't that much of a problem with rogue tanks right now save the physical mitigation thing. Honestly if they slightly change one or two things we can quickly go back to being more than viable tanks in HK for all guilds. Even if they only reverted the talent that gives 6% more healing back to being 30%, it would make up for the huge spikes we are seeing right now. Either that, or making rift guard and rift barrier stack while making rift barrier only for physical mitigation. With it's 15 second length and with the 30-45 second cool-downs on most of our teleports, we can easily keep it up most of the time.

  11. #11
    Ascendant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grid View Post
    Well that answers my questions, though I still have to say that there really isn't that much of a problem with rogue tanks right now save the physical mitigation thing. Honestly if they slightly change one or two things we can quickly go back to being more than viable tanks in HK for all guilds. Even if they only reverted the talent that gives 6% more healing back to being 30%, it would make up for the huge spikes we are seeing right now. Either that, or making rift guard and rift barrier stack while making rift barrier only for physical mitigation. With it's 15 second length and with the 30-45 second cool-downs on most of our teleports, we can easily keep it up most of the time.
    I see no reason to remove the magical damage portion fo Rift Barrier.
    I'M RIFTSTALKING YOUR MUM!

    I've found that Warriors are like Feminists. They want equality when it suits them, but the rest of the time they want to be treated special.

  12. #12
    Soulwalker
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    Well without it removed, we would end up with another 15% magic mitigation. Since the shield blocks both magic and physical, it'd end up being a tad over the top to have both shields stack and we'd be back in our original position where we are the undisputed magic mitigation tanks. Now, I don't deny that would be nice but it seems a tad over the top to give us even more magic mitigation. Especially considering how clerics would cry that we got even more magic mitigation while they still have barely any.

    Then again, it would conform with the idea that each individual tank has their own "expertise". It would place rogues as the highest magic mitigation, while at the lowest physical mitigation. Warriors would be the middle ground with great defenses in either realm, and clerics would end up with the lowest magic mitigation, and highest physical mitigation.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    Rift Barrier for mitigation would be awful. Yes let's stack our mitigation by plane shifting behind the boss and cleaving everyone in the party? Only two plane shifts give relative stability of position if you need to stay in one place. Rift Barrier isn't the solution IMO.

    I'm also curious -- has anyone actually hit the base dodge cap to confirm it? Parry cap is easily testable with Clerics and it reflects in the character sheet, but I've not seen as much with dodge. Or has it been confirmed by devs, and if so, where? Forgive me, I'd like to know exactly how we know. I don't take everything I see on the internet at face value.

  14. #14
    Champion
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    Rift Barrier for mitigation would be awful. Yes let's stack our mitigation by plane shifting behind the boss and cleaving everyone in the party? Only two plane shifts give relative stability of position if you need to stay in one place. Rift Barrier isn't the solution IMO.

    I'm also curious -- has anyone actually hit the base dodge cap to confirm it? Parry cap is easily testable with Clerics and it reflects in the character sheet, but I've not seen as much with dodge. Or has it been confirmed by devs, and if so, where? Forgive me, I'd like to know exactly how we know. I don't take everything I see on the internet at face value.
    an additional shield that procs off crits but only absorbs physical dmg. tie it to improved guardian phase. make it only work in guardian phase to prevent pvp cheese.

    asborbs physical dmg equal to 15% of your health. so if you have 10k health (t2 expert geared or thereabouts) it absorbs 1500. if you have 15k health (dealing with hk) it absorbs 2250. give it a 5s icd.

    for t2 pug tanking, add the following to improved guardian phase "while in guardian phase, the cooldown of rift disturbance is removed".

  15. #15
    Ascendant Nightwish's Avatar
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    Wtb higher Dex to Dodge scaling as well as Parry from Dex.

    How come the evading class can't well.... evade?

    - Vybz
    Last edited by Nightwish; 08-13-2011 at 11:55 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

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