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Thread: Not-So-Silent Sabdancer?

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Not-So-Silent Sabdancer?

    The Not-So-Silent Sabdancer
    Current Sabdancer Spec: Sabdancer
    The Not-So-Silent Spec: Not-So-Silent Sabdancer

    I have been toying with the idea of improving the general Sabdancer spec and I came across something which kind of seems obvious in retrospect.

    Silent Setup is a good talent. With three points in it, you can safely preload a full stack of charges onto an enemy and run into a fight ready to go. Since sab is back-loaded DPS, going in with a full set of charges is great. It also makes it so all of your charges do no threat which is a good precaution for the threat-heavy sabdancer spec.

    However, it doesn't help your DPS in the long run. 3/3 Silent Setup is a slight DPS increase, but on most any raid boss fight, it quickly becomes negligible. So I figured it was worth testing a slight change, the Not-So-Silent Sabdancer. The change is pretty simple, take one point out of Silent Setup and put it in Charge Booster.

    Pros:
    • Adds about a 40dps increase on the dummy (self buffed).
    • Charge Booster can crit.
    • If you need to drop five charges and det at a distance (without DD), does extra damage.
    • 2/3 of your charges still cause no threat. You may preload 2-3 charges (and gain back their energy) when running into a fight.

    Cons:
    • No safe pre-charging.
    • Only one of your detonates uses five points.
    • You do slightly more overall threat from damage increase and occasional charges causing threat.

    The benefit isn't huge but it certainly is noticeable, especially on longer fights. To counter the threat increase, you can simply drop an extra incriminate or two or have the tank Intercept you once or twice more.

    The key thing preventing this build from really shining is the limitations in the rotation. Most sabdancer rotations are one of these two (after preloading spikes):

    Spike*4 > DD > Spike > Puncture > Detonate >Shrap*5 > Detonate
    or
    Spike*3 > Puncture > DD > Spike*2 > Detonate > Shrap*5 > Detonate
    The limit is that Charge Booster only activates when you have five combo points on your target, not when you have five charges. This means is is only triggering when you drop your five Shrapnel Charges and not when you are setting up DD and detonating your Spike Charges. I have so far been unable to devise a rotation that efficiently lets you detonate with five charges each time so that both detonates could use Charge Booster. It seems that the only way to do this would be to include additional Deadly Strikes to trigger DD in the rotation which is energy inefficient and costs additional GCDs.

    If anything, Trion should probably fix it so that Charge Booster depends on the number of charges rather than the number of combo points.

    Does anyone have any thoughts? Is there any real reason not to do this?
    Last edited by Toolington; 08-10-2011 at 04:37 PM.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
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    You seem to be under the misconception that the 'standard' sabdancer spec does not include Charge Booster. In fact, it does. It may only fire off every other rotation, but it's still a dps increase. The regular spec includes 3/3 Silent Setup, and only 4/5 Improved Detonate.

    If you're dropping a point from Silent Setup, you might as well drop all three. You won't be able to use it reliably without all three points, making the other two a waste.
    Last edited by Caelan; 08-10-2011 at 04:53 PM.
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  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    A quick edit and correction:
    Charge Booster does NOT crit, it should have been a con.

    Additional Info:
    Also, two things about Charge Booster and the DPS increase. First, it appears Charge Booster can't crit. I'm not sure why this is, but in my testing I have never seen it crit. Nothing about the skill says it can't crit. Also, sabdancer rotations take 13 GCDs between final Detonates (the one where you Detonate five Shrapnel Charges) and Charge Booster will usually do 140-160 DPS with a raid tier 1 weapon (GSB, ROS, GP, DH, 34dps). Logically, it should add 150/13=11.54 to your DPS. However, in testing it seems to add at least 30 to your DPS, and I found it normally adds over 40. I am not sure why this is.

  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    You now, in the cookiecutter sabdancer you already specc into charge booster and simply put 4/5 into improved detonate.
    With this knowledge it's kinda obvious that 5 preset charges are > 5% more detonate dmg (in a full rotations you're only using it once with 5cp, the other time with a mere 2) in a 5min encounter szenario.

    So whats the point of this thread again?

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Greed View Post
    You now, in the cookiecutter sabdancer you already specc into charge booster and simply put 4/5 into improved detonate.
    With this knowledge it's kinda obvious that 5 preset charges are > 5% more detonate dmg (in a full rotations you're only using it once with 5cp, the other time with a mere 2) in a 5min encounter szenario.

    So whats the point of this thread again?
    Then you are gaining 5% det damage instead of Charge Booster. Either way it is a measurable DPS increase, moreso on fights that last more than a few rotations (every boss fight).

  6. #6
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    The point is that either way, if you take a point out of Silent Setup, it becomes unreliable and you won't be using it in a raid setting to preload charges.

    Sure, 2/3 will work, but it's unlikely you'll get a full stack up, as you have a 1/3 chance on every charge to aggro the boss/pack of mobs. You're just wasting 2 talent points by taking one out.
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  7. #7
    lgw
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    1) A full set of charges amounts to muuuch more damage than a tiny, weeny bit of extra damage on that one finisher, that does low damage and is used at 5 CP only half of the time at best.
    2) Now add that thanks to Incriminate all your raid can start right away with the big guns, instead of holding back for a few secs, you easily gain another 50k damage to straight away, it's not even a contest.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caelan View Post
    The point is that either way, if you take a point out of Silent Setup, it becomes unreliable and you won't be using it in a raid setting to preload charges.

    Sure, 2/3 will work, but it's unlikely you'll get a full stack up, as you have a 1/3 chance on every charge to aggro the boss/pack of mobs. You're just wasting 2 talent points by taking one out.
    I totally agree with Caelan here. I have tried with 1/3 and 2/3 in Silent Setup and both are unrealiable. On trash, you might be able to get away with 2/3 sometimes. But for Boss fights, it will more than likely agro the boss.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    1) A full set of charges amounts to muuuch more damage than a tiny, weeny bit of extra damage on that one finisher, that does low damage and is used at 5 CP only half of the time at best.
    2) Now add that thanks to Incriminate all your raid can start right away with the big guns, instead of holding back for a few secs, you easily gain another 50k damage to straight away, it's not even a contest.
    You get that full stack of charges once, at the start of the fight. The whole point of this post is that over extended fights, it is a DPS increase. You also get 2-3 free charges running into most fights. When raid buff, the effectiveness of gaining Charge Booster or 5/5 Improved Detonate increases quite a bit.

    Also, 2/3 Silent Setup isn't totally useless. First, there is nothing better to get since you need 25 points to get to Residual Shrapnel. It also makes it so 2/3 of your charges don't do any threat which makes you need fewer incriminates to DPS safely. It isn't supposed to be reliable for preloading charges, you start throwing after the tank pulls initial aggro.
    Last edited by Toolington; 08-10-2011 at 05:39 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toolington View Post
    You get that full stack of charges once, at the start of the fight. The whole point of this post is that over extended fights, it is a DPS increase. You also get 2-3 free charges running into most fights. When raid buff, the effectiveness of gaining Charge Booster or 5/5 Improved Detonate increases quite a bit.

    Also, 2/3 Silent Setup isn't totally useless. First, there is nothing better to get since you need 25 points to get to Residual Shrapnel. It also makes it so 2/3 of your charges don't do any threat which makes you need fewer incriminates to DPS safely. It isn't supposed to be reliable for preloading charges, you start throwing after the tank pulls initial aggro.
    "After the tank pulls" means your did 0 precharges so having 2/3 or 1/3 is the same as 0/3. your thread for apply a charge is like 0, its just pulls the mob if you don't have 3/3 silent stup. 1 incriminate at the start is more than enough for a good tank to hold aggro.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aluu View Post
    "After the tank pulls" means your did 0 precharges so having 2/3 or 1/3 is the same as 0/3. your thread for apply a charge is like 0, its just pulls the mob if you don't have 3/3 silent stup. 1 incriminate at the start is more than enough for a good tank to hold aggro.
    As you run in, you can toss 2-3+ charges free of cost before you get in to pop DD with the rest of the rogues. Needing two GCDs to prepare is well worth the DPS increase from the spec changes.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toolington View Post
    As you run in, you can toss 2-3+ charges free of cost before you get in to pop DD with the rest of the rogues. Needing two GCDs to prepare is well worth the DPS increase from the spec changes.
    5 preloaded sharpnel + detonate, 3 spike while i reach the boss then continue normal with DS is a must for my raid :P
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  13. #13
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    Can't edit so new post. Some calculations:

    Today i did on a try to Sicaron 101,152 damage with 4/5 on improved detonate.
    That means 5% less than a 5/5 detonate = 5% of 101,152 = 5075,6 damage on a 597 seconds try = 8,4dps.
    My average damage on Sharpnel was 1260.9, so 1260.9 x5 (preload) = 6304,5 on a 597 seconds try = 10,5 dps

    Means that 4/5 improved detonate is less dps than 3/3 Silent Setup.

    So no, theres no improvement on the build plus the fact that the sabdancer build he posted is wrong, since it includes charge boolster as stated before, theres no new better build :P
    Last edited by Aluu; 08-10-2011 at 07:09 PM.
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    Again can't edit so once more... another post:

    Forgot to add the damage of the initial detonate after the 5 preloaded sharpnels that you can't else cast if you don't have 3/3 silent setup:
    average damage of detonate 1385.6 on a 590s try = 2,3dps.
    So the real number after having 3/3 Silent Setup is 12,7dps.

    Plus the aggro that gets the tank with the incriminate, plus the 50% damage we'll have with 4set crystal plus blah blah blah.
    The "cervezas" rogue of Special Olympics.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aluu View Post
    Can't edit so new post. Some calculations:

    Today i did on a try to Sicaron 101,152 damage with 4/5 on improved detonate.
    That means 5% less than a 5/5 detonate = 5% of 101,152 = 5075,6 damage on a 597 seconds try = 8,4dps.
    My average damage on Sharpnel was 1260.9, so 1260.9 x5 (preload) = 6304,5 on a 597 seconds try = 10,5 dps

    Means that 4/5 improved detonate is less dps than 3/3 Silent Setup.

    So no, theres no improvement on the build plus the fact that the sabdancer build he posted is wrong, since it includes charge boolster as stated before, theres no new better build :P
    You aren't taking into account the fact that you still get three preloaded charges while running up to engage. The moment the boss sees the tank, you start throwing as you go in and by the time you get there, you have three. There is a 0% chance you will pull off the tank, even if the tank body pulls. In a normal rotation, you either run in and punct right away and then drop DD or run in, spike x1, dd, punt, spike. At most, you are losing either 1 GCD or 2 combo points on your DD finisher which isn't more than 1000 damage. So in your calculations, try 1000ish damage over 597 seconds (1.68dps). You lose 1.68dps and gain 8.4dps, by your calculations.
    Last edited by Toolington; 08-10-2011 at 07:24 PM.

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