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Thread: Problem with dummy-testing: Sword and Dagger

  1. #1
    Ascendant Satiar's Avatar
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    Default Problem with dummy-testing: Sword and Dagger

    I am aware of the mechanics that make Daggers better than Swords. However, there is a mechanic I was hoping to be enlightened about.

    In a control test environment, my 33 dps Dagger hit harder than my 34 dps sword. As in, blow for blow, higher values.

    I was under the impression that the advantage was faster speed, leading to more auto-attacks and procs and therefore more spotters order procs. I didn't think it actually hit *harder*.

    Can anyone enlighten me as to why this is?
    Officer of Legacy, Keenblade.

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  2. #2
    Telaran
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    Normalization.

  3. #3
    Plane Touched
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    Even with normalization, a 33 dps weapon should not hit harder than a 34 dps weapon. What evidence do you have to support this, OP? If we can determine that this is in fact an issue, we can submit it to the developers to investigate.

    How are you determining this? Do you have parses to back up the data?
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    Thanks a lot, Daglar.

  4. #4
    Ascendant Satiar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caelan View Post
    Even with normalization, a 33 dps weapon should not hit harder than a 34 dps weapon. What evidence do you have to support this, OP? If we can determine that this is in fact an issue, we can submit it to the developers to investigate.

    How are you determining this? Do you have parses to back up the data?
    No parses, but I'll explain my method. Bear in mind I have no reason to lie or distort, I sincerely want an answer here.


    I tested on a combat dummy with a basic template build. No proc for damage increases of any kind. I hit the dummy with Savage Strikes repeated, coming up with the same consistent crits at 214 on my 34 DPS sword ( Verdant Slayer ). Then I moved out of combat, swapped mainhand for my PvP Dagger (33.6 dps). My consistent crits were now 238 with savage strike.

    To make sure I wasn't exploiting a debuff or buff on the dummy. I switched forward and back several times, with the exact same results. Each time, my 33 dps dagger hit harder blow for blow than my 34 dps sword.

    Is that enough information to work off of? Did I miss something?
    Last edited by Satiar; 07-17-2011 at 04:22 PM.
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  5. #5
    Sword of Telara
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    did you have whetstones on? if so that explains it, if not i have no idea

  6. #6
    Soulwalker Nadger's Avatar
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    you said no procs, but did you have whetstones? spotters orders?

    also lastly, what stat differences are there between the sword and the dagger, maybe you're gaining a bunch of AP with the dagger so its hitting harder.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Adnoz's Avatar
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    Sounds to me like you werent aware of the weapon swap bug when performing these tests.
    If you swap weapons from slow MH fast OH to fast MH slow OH without triggering a damage increasing talent (like cruel vengeance) your dagger will do increased damage as it's being treated like the MH weapon speed. Could also be the whetstones normalization issue if you had those on.
    Last edited by Adnoz; 07-17-2011 at 04:42 PM.

    (Gear)

  8. #8
    Champion Skyline's Avatar
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    maybe the stats on your dagger allowed for higher dmg compared to the stats on the sword?

  9. #9
    Ascendant Satiar's Avatar
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    Just tested again.

    No one in party with me to buff or debuff. No proc buffs (speced out of cruel vengeance). Got out of combat to swap weapons. Current Exquisite whetstones on both weapons.

    I get consistent 675 crits with 34, and 718 crits with the 33.

    I have no idea what is causing this.
    Officer of Legacy, Keenblade.

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  10. #10
    Rift Master Carthoris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satiar View Post
    Just tested again.

    No one in party with me to buff or debuff. No proc buffs (speced out of cruel vengeance). Got out of combat to swap weapons. Current Exquisite whetstones on both weapons.

    I get consistent 675 crits with 34, and 718 crits with the 33.

    I have no idea what is causing this.
    Don't whetstones provide a much larger bonus to daggers than to swords? Try it with no whetstones.

  11. #11
    Telaran
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    The whetstones are the reason why they do more damage, whetstones increase damage on a weapon by an amount, say 12 in exquisites case, now if you do the math you work out that daggers benefit more than all weapons due to faster attack speed (meaning lower damage on the weapon) meaning whetstones have a higher % increase on them.

    Sorry if this makes no sense im on my mobile got bored and checked the forums and seen this. There are threads with calculations in it etc that explain it all.

  12. #12
    Sword of Telara
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    it applies the damage to the base formula, not after normalization.

    33.6 dps dagger (1.6s speed)
    34 dps axe (2.4 sec speed)

    2 +12 whetstones, so +24.

    24/1.6 = 15
    24/2.4 = 10

    so its viewing the dagger as 4.4 higher dps due to this.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker Nadger's Avatar
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    daggers are 1.8 speed, but still i would imagine whetstones, if not, try checking the damage, going out of combat, switch souls to something with ranger, turn on and off the attack power buff, switch souls back, and switch weapons and check again.

  14. #14
    Rift Disciple
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    Yeah I just... wow wish I would have known this. Never crossed my mind.
    My dagger is 42-79 Damage. A 33.6 DPS weapon.
    My sword is 50-93 Damage. A 40 DPS weapon.

    If the stones apply to the "damage" and not the "dps" then it would work like this.
    The dagger would be 54-92 Damage. (+12 Whetstone)
    The sword would be 62-105 Damage. (+12 Whetstone)

    Now the high of the dagger is 79, then divide by 12. 79/12=6.583
    Now the low of the dagger is 42, then divide by 12. 42/12=3.5
    Now the high of the dagger with stone is 92, then divide by 12. 92/12=7.666
    Now the low of the dagger with stone is 54, then divide by 12. 54/12=4.5

    Now the high of the sword is 93, then divide by 12. 93/12=7.75
    Now the low of the sword is 50, then divide by 12. 50/12=4.16
    Now the high of the sword with stone is 105, then divide by 12. 105/12=8.75
    Now the low of the sword with stone is 62, then divide by 12. 62/12=5.166

    Now the high of dagger with stone minus the high of dagger. 7.666-6.583=1.083
    Now the low of dagger with stone minus the low of dagger. 4.16-3.5=0.66

    Now the high of sword with stone minus the high of sword. 8.75-7.75=1
    Now the low of sword with stone minus the low of sword. 5.166-4.16=1.006

    Now I just threw this together... Math may be wrong.
    BUT
    Dagger is at a higher gain on max hits at 1.083 over 1, so a 0.083 advantage.
    THOUGH
    Sword is at a higher gain on min hits at 1.006 over 0.66, so a 0.346 advantage.

    Would someone check and correct me if I am wrong?

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple
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    Can you do me a favor and post your differences on your High Hits with both weapons and your Low Hits?
    So like 248 to 290.
    And 178 to 201.

    Or something like that

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