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Thread: Anyone with good AP v Crit comparisons?

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Cool Anyone with good AP v Crit comparisons?

    Hello fellow rogues,

    So yes .. I have read all sorts of theory craft on this, but unfortunately I am too cheap to swap out my lessers/greaters to test the hard numbers myself as my main sigil has necrotic already slotted. What I am looking for is someone with hard data on the crit v ap argument. Anyone with total AP v. total crit sigil out there who has parsed and has a list, I would love to see it (or be directed to another thread).

    I know a lot of us have heard 1:1, versus 2:1, versus 1.5:1 - just trying to get a handle where I need to be for best DPS. At the moment, i just stack crit -- which seems decent due to the magnify pain mechanic (20% free boosts). However, I am wondering with so many 100% AP bonus skills where the line gets drawn.

    Please no theory crafting -- seen enough to vomit all over the keys. Thanks if someone out there has the data!

    Vymm

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    it all depends on your class, there is no magic number that applies to all

  3. #3
    Sword of Telara
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    your gear as well. as crit increases in number, AP increases in value. same thing for more AP making crit worth more

  4. #4
    Shadowlander
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    I am sorry but neither response was very helpful in anyway, shape or form. I asked for numbers or a direction to some.

    As for what I play mainly BD/Ranger/Sin, though I have toyed with the idea of Sabodancer. Either way ... still would like some numbers to see what people are seeing with different sigil set ups.

    Vymm

  5. #5
    Sword of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vymm View Post
    I am sorry but neither response was very helpful in anyway, shape or form. I asked for numbers or a direction to some.

    As for what I play mainly BD/Ranger/Sin, though I have toyed with the idea of Sabodancer. Either way ... still would like some numbers to see what people are seeing with different sigil set ups.

    Vymm
    your origional statement made it difficult to give a helpful responce :P there are about 15 million variables involved. the spec, rotation and so on will all greatly change which is more important. MM benifits tons more from AP. if you spec passively in sin it helps alot as well. you seem to hate theorycrafting so im definately not your guy :P i, unfortunately, dont have the time to build another 2-3 focus's (i already have 4). there is plenty of "direction" on the fourms, for people who still have their test from ap focus vs crit focus laying around, probably a lower chance. i would definately recomend doing the test yourself in order to get exactly the data you are looking for.

    edit: given, i do think my responce was helpful. if i do a test at this very second right now and gave you the results, they may not pertain to you at all. reason being like i said, the stats scale with eachother. if im much better geared than you my values may be TOTALLY diffrent than yours because my stats are totally diffrent. as mecc said, there is no magic number at all.
    Last edited by Seyon; 07-10-2011 at 11:30 AM.

  6. #6
    Champion of Telara Nnnxia's Avatar
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    Under raid conditions, the value of AP to Crit is 1 is to 2.7.

    With Starting AP of 667 and CR of 958.

  7. #7
    Champion of Telara Nnnxia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nnnxia View Post
    Under raid conditions, the value of AP to Crit is 1 is to 2.7.

    With Starting AP of 667 and CR of 958.
    My english is bad,
    I meant 1 AP = 2.7 Crit

  8. #8
    Rift Disciple
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    For Sabdancer in my gear (T2/T1 mix, 591 dex (counting combat prep), 514 AP, 834 crit, 29.2 DPS weapons) in melee, 1 AP = 1.5557 Crit.

    In general, somewhere between 1 AP = 1 Crit and 1 AP = 3 Crit for most specs. Trion uses 1 AP = 2 Crit for weighting the stats on items, so that's a generally safe bet.

    ==================================================

    For those who don't mind theorycraft and care about getting a ratio that's right for their spec (Do you have a %AP talent (say, Sozu's ranger taking increased fire power in MM)? Or a skill with a boost to AP (Say talented Deadly Strike in BD)? AP will scale better.) you can calculate it.


    Damage = (Base + AP * APCoeff) * CritRate * CritMod

    Where Base includes the contribution of weapon damage, AP is your AP, APCoeff is the AP coefficient for that ability, CritRate is your crit rate, and CritMod is your crit mod (generally 1.5 or 1.8 (with assassin and cruel vengeance up) or 1.7 (cruel vengeance dropped off).

    So we have a function Damage of 2 variables AP and CritRate. To find the best improvement at any point we want a gradient vector to tell us what to add (or just use it as a ∆AP:∆Crit ratio). So let's take the partial derivatives of Damage with respect to AP and Crit:

    ∂Damage/∂AP = APCoeff * CritMod * Crit Rate

    ∂Damage/∂Cr = (AP * APCoeff + Base)*CritMod

    Gradient Damage(AP, CritRate) = <APCoeff * CritMod * Crit Rate , (AP * APCoeff + Base) * CritMod>

    Which tells you which direction to move on a graph of Damage(AP,Crit) to maximize damage. Yay vectors.
    Now do that for all skills in your rotation and find the weighted average vector with the % of your rotation's damage done by each skill as the weights to find the vector by which to gain a maximal damage increase. Since AP and crit are your axes the slope of the vector is the ratio. Since it's an infinitesimal vector anyway you don't have to bother taking the derivative.

    I haven't taken Calc III yet, but partial derivatives and gradients are pretty intuitive. If I messed up the math please tell me.

  9. #9
    Shadowlander
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    It really depends on what spec you are playing. Flat out once you get to around 950+ crit rating raid buffed start stacking AP. My sigil is all but one dex/str/AP lessers. Stack Crit until the gear gets you high enough to start trading out for AP. Then stack AP. simple enough imo. I use a wierd spec that i love 44sab/17sin/5rs. 5 rs for the teleport, ENDUR buff and +15% ap. 5spike, Det, 5shrap, Det rotation. auto attack in melee range. fun fun.

  10. #10
    Shadowlander
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    So after testing quick first runs (50+ hits for both) .... method was using 1 weapon. No proc skills except necrotic - so with and without 50 AP was the ONLY modifier.

    Weapon used: Fang of the Life Lord.

    Auto Attacks:
    Highest hits with necrotic: 130
    Highest without necrotic: 119

    9.45% diff


    Backstab (100% AP bonus):
    Highest hits with necrotic: 497
    Highest without necrotic: 485

    2.47% diff

    I will post more when I test this evening 100+ hits for both. I also did Primal strikes without the added bonus and will add those. I will also provide logs in the next post - for the states guys.

    Very underwhelming so far with 50 AP.

    Vymm

  11. #11
    Sword of Telara
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    technically backstab should only hit 10 harder, and its doing 12, more than expected.

    finishers scale 2 1/2 times better than backstab does (getting 500% contribution at 5 CP, as opposed to the 200% of backstab (+100))

  12. #12
    Sword of Telara
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    crits are easy to compair since they modify your max damage (from the swing), much more consistant.

    crit before words of war: 460
    crit after words of war (+250 ap): 502

    42 damage diffrence. 25 (expected increase) * 1.7 (crit modifier) = 42.5



    final blow crit without words of war: 1562
    final blow crit with words of war: 1799

    237 diffrence. 125 (expected increase) * 1.7 (modifier) = 212.

    hmm.. ill look into it more after work

  13. #13
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vymm View Post
    Weapon used: Fang of the Life Lord.

    Auto Attacks:
    Highest hits with necrotic: 130
    Highest without necrotic: 119

    9.45% diff


    Backstab (100% AP bonus):
    Highest hits with necrotic: 497
    Highest without necrotic: 485

    2.47% diff
    Calculating a % of total doesn't give you useful information because different skills have different base damage (or in your case autoattack has no "base damage", while backstab does). You need to take the absolute difference in damage (ie 130-119 and 497-485) and compare that to the change in AP. Later posts have the right idea on this.

  14. #14
    Qan
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    Auto-attacks don't scale with AP.
    If you had backstab talented that increase from 119 to 130 was either your offhand critting or Cruel Vengeance proccing.
    Last edited by Qan; 07-13-2011 at 03:37 PM.
    Rogue DPS BiS | Critical Hit | Soft Cap: 1187 | Hard Cap: 3163
    Retired | ANet: Qan.4672 | Steam: qankriegor

  15. #15
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qan View Post
    Auto-attacks don't scale with AP.
    If you had backstab talented that increase from 119 to 130 was either your offhand critting or Cruel Vengeance proccing.
    Please read no offhand slotted. Cruel was never up as I took it off all times ... only diff was necrotic.

    Vymm

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