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Thread: IMPORTANT Sabdancer Tool

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default IMPORTANT Sabdancer Tool

    These past 4 days, I have spent around 12-15 hours testing and working out a program to help work out some accurate stat weights for the cookie cutter sabdancer build. I have created an Excel Document (can be opened in OpenOffice) that will tell you how much DPS each stat increase (MH DPS, OH DPS, Dex, Str, AP, and Crit). This will ONLY work for the cookie cutter sabdancer build, and ONLY under a rotation that uses 5xSpike Charges, 5xShrap Charges, 1 5CP Deadly Dance, 1 2CP Detonate, 1 Puncture, and 1 5CP Detonate. This is a rotation like:

    Puncture>3xSpike>Deadly>2xSpike>Detonate>5xShrap>D etonate

    It assumes Lethal and Virulent Poison and ALL POSSIBLE Raid Buffs and Debuffs that stack to improve AP/DMG/Crit excluding Vials, Cupcakes, and Whetstones. It assumes 15 Seconds for a rotation for two reasons. 1. To allow all Spike Charge ticks to happen and 2. 14GCD + 1 second for any lag (70ms latency or higher).

    All Testing was done attacking the Boss Dummy NAKED, except for white weapons bought from the melee weapon vendor in Meridian.

    I can guarantee you this is not 100% accurate at all, but I assure that it's pretty damn close to accurate, and a lot more accurate than any other tool out to date.

    DO NOT ALTER ANY NUMBERS EXCEPT 4 AREAS ON THE FIRST PAGE! These are MH Weapon DPS, AP, Crit, and OH Weapon DPS

    The excel spreadsheet is right here. http://www.mediafire.com/?cg35u4rj716gtp5

    If you have any questions of how I got numbers or anything else, ask away. Feel free to look through the other sheets, but remember not to mess with any of the other values, otherwise the calculations will no longer be accurate.

  2. #2
    Shadowlander
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    For those of you too lazy to use the spreadsheet and just want some stat weights, for using the stats

    MH Weapon DPS 29.2
    AP 579
    Crit 893
    OH Weapon DPS 29.2

    I get the weights:


    DPS/Dex 0.93 Use 1.13 if not using http://riftupgrade.mathijs.info/roguedps/
    DPS/AP 0.68
    DPS/Crit 0.59
    DPS/Str 0.34
    DPS/MH DPS 23.98
    DPS/OH DPS 2.07

  3. #3
    Shadowlander
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    Updated a small oversight on my part for people not using http://riftupgrade.mathijs.info/roguedps/

    New Spreadsheet: http://www.mediafire.com/?681fhk09w7jk23h

    Also something to note is put your Highest DPS weapon in the MH slot (You should be anyways just out of habit). The reason for this is the game tends to not differentiate MH vs OH when using weapon damage for skills, it just uses whichever weapon is the highest DPS.

  4. #4
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    Very nice work. I always knew dex > all, but didn't know about ap > crit. I was thinking they were about even, but recently starting thinking crit was a bit better. It's close either way, but now that you've confirmed ap I don't have to change any essences.

  5. #5
    Shadowlander
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    Well the thing to remember is most items have 2Crit for every 1AP, so while AP might be weighted higher, most gear of the save level/drop area, etc... with one being Crit and one being AP, the Crit one will be more valuable.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched RageHulkSmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyruski View Post
    Well the thing to remember is most items have 2Crit for every 1AP, so while AP might be weighted higher, most gear of the save level/drop area, etc... with one being Crit and one being AP, the Crit one will be more valuable.
    How did you do the crit calculations? Because crits are always max damage, qan and I found crit to be roughly 1.9x damage compared to the average noncrit.

  7. #7
    Shadowlander
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    Crits are actually only 1.7x (though now that I look at the wording of the talent, it might be 1.8x, if so, I need to change a few things) so what I did was since crits are the only solid value (under the same stats and conditions, they will always be the same amount) I looked at the crit damage, and converted the nromal damage from here. One of the reasons why I said this spreadsheet isn't 100% accurate is because as far as I can tell, the game takes the highest a normal hit can do (or at least the upper range of that) and multiplies it by the crit increase. I wasn't willing to do all the math to find out how much abilities normally hit for without any crits because that would require long parses excluding any crit that would happen, and that's too much work for me. I still feel it is very accurate though.
    Last edited by Kyruski; 07-09-2011 at 04:37 PM.

  8. #8
    RIFT Guide Writer
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    I like excel sheets. However the calculations on this one are done so that they are practically impossible to decypher. The result I got when I put in my stats was that for dps 1.1 crit = 1.0 ap which is a really low ratio, definitely lower than what my own tests would indicate. So although I would like to trust the result, I just can't without more solid understanding how it's calculated.

  9. #9
    Shadowlander
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    Those weights are actually pretty correct. Sabdancer has none of those abilities that have "An additional 50/100% damage bonus from attack power" which makes other classes scale so well with AP.

    What about the calculations would you like to know?

  10. #10
    Champion ComaEtilico's Avatar
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    when comparing the weight of ap and crit for this build u have to consider 2 things:

    1) ap scale pretty bad with dot
    2) ap scale pretty well with rogue's finisher


    now look at the build and rotation...

    this build take most of his dmg from dot and builder... so the less ap benefitting skill ^^

    also by observation the 20% more dmg on crit doesn't seem to traslate to a 170% of base dmg on crit but a 150% + 20% of the 150%... so 180%... and so crit became even heavier...


    this is FOR THIS SPEC... for other spec like heavy bd, the hoko or heavy ranger ap become more interesting because they'r using really few dot, have their finisher as one of the greatest dmg source and use heavy dmg multiplier (shadow fire and deadly dance) that will increase the benefit u get form ap...

    also for those that have raid equip u have to consider that u already have a LOT of crit from those... and there is a level where increasing your crit will became less usefull than increasing your ap even if the crit weight is higher... (and this doesn't happen when u reach 100% crit rate :P)


    so... for t2 equipped char and sabo/sabdancer crit FTW... for raid equipped and non dot based spec AP FTW


    this as long as we talk about pve... pvp is a total different story... in pvp the DPS is not what metter... burst dmg is much more important... and this is why sabo where so much hated some time ago... and phyro got their nerf on cinder/fulminate/inferno... king of burst dmg will always be king of pvp ^^
    The truth about Asha Catari leader of the Defiant and Regolus the great enemy of Talera that u've always known and feared to tell...

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    /end lore.

  11. #11
    Shadowlander
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    Updated the spreadsheet to use 180% for crits instead of 170%. Also changed a few things to reference other fields making it easier for me for any future changes/fixes.

    New spreadsheet here: http://www.mediafire.com/?qa03rcag5magsc3

    Updated DPS/stat values as follows:

    Stats as
    MH Weapon DPS 29.2
    AP 579
    Crit 893
    OH Weapon DPS 29.2


    DPS Increase
    DPS/Dex 0.98 Use 1.19 if not using http://riftupgrade.mathijs.info/roguedps/
    DPS/AP 0.68
    DPS/Crit 0.64
    DPS/Str 0.34
    DPS/MH DPS 27.69
    DPS/OH DPS 2.12

  12. #12
    Plane Touched RageHulkSmash's Avatar
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    ComaEtilico, shrapnel and spike charge both gain bonus ap from improved talents from testing.

    Also, highest normal hit isn't the average normal hit (duh) so when you compare the average normal hit to the crit damage, crits end up doing a lot more than 70% extra damage. We tested savage strike for about 20 minutes and realized the crit damage was about 1.9x the average normal damage. I don't know if it's the same for any other skills though.

    It's a good start, Kyruski. I'll try helping out when I get more testing done.

  13. #13
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by RageHulkSmash View Post
    ComaEtilico, shrapnel and spike charge both gain bonus ap from improved talents from testing.

    Also, highest normal hit isn't the average normal hit (duh) so when you compare the average normal hit to the crit damage, crits end up doing a lot more than 70% extra damage. We tested savage strike for about 20 minutes and realized the crit damage was about 1.9x the average normal damage. I don't know if it's the same for any other skills though.

    It's a good start, Kyruski. I'll try helping out when I get more testing done.
    Pretty much every skill/ability gains DMG from AP, but spike and shrap don't gain bonus AP. It's the skills that have have "An additional 50/100% damage bonus from attack power" in their tooltip which gain additional dmg from AP. These are skills like Backstab, Precision Strike, Quick Strike, etc... And these skills double the usefulness of AP.

    Also you seem to be ignoring things that I post in response. I have changed crit values from the incorrect 1.7x to the correct 1.8x and I specifically said "One of the reasons why I said this spreadsheet isn't 100% accurate is because as far as I can tell, the game takes the highest a normal hit can do (or at least the upper range of that) and multiplies it by the crit increase." Figuring out the actual normal damage takes a lot of work, which I'm not willing to go through to have the stat weight values change by .01 or .02.

  14. #14
    Soulwalker
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    Can u post your build, plz?

  15. #15
    Plane Touched RageHulkSmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyruski View Post
    Pretty much every skill/ability gains DMG from AP, but spike and shrap don't gain bonus AP. It's the skills that have have "An additional 50/100% damage bonus from attack power" in their tooltip which gain additional dmg from AP. These are skills like Backstab, Precision Strike, Quick Strike, etc... And these skills double the usefulness of AP.

    Also you seem to be ignoring things that I post in response. I have changed crit values from the incorrect 1.7x to the correct 1.8x and I specifically said "One of the reasons why I said this spreadsheet isn't 100% accurate is because as far as I can tell, the game takes the highest a normal hit can do (or at least the upper range of that) and multiplies it by the crit increase." Figuring out the actual normal damage takes a lot of work, which I'm not willing to go through to have the stat weight values change by .01 or .02.
    But 1.7x is the correct value with magnify pain. Where did you get 1.8x from?

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