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Thread: The traditional ranged sab spec: Is it wrong? (Warning: Numbers!)

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    Shadowlander
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    Default The traditional ranged sab spec: Is it wrong? (Warning: Numbers!)

    Hiya all,

    So earlier today the question was raised if applying a whetstone to both daggers will cause it to do more damage than a bow thus making it pointless to have ranger in your saboteur spec. I tested it out, and it turns out that whetstones will affect your charge damage even when using the ranged weapon as a modifier. Some of you are at this point saying "Yes, I already knew that." Bear with me for a second here.

    So, I did some tests using different types of whetstones on my two Daggers. I tested after both doing a ranged auto-attack and a melee auto-attack using blast charges to give a consistent baseline since it will always do the same damage on a crit. I then changed the whetstones on the weapons to confirm that it would affect ranged damage. It did.

    Using the traditional 44S/20A/2R
    592 AP
    Main hand- 33.6 DPS
    Off Hand - 29.2 DPS
    Bow - 41.7

    Results:
    Exq. Whetstones
    Ranged 693
    Melee 683

    Coarse Whetstones
    Ranged 668
    Melee 642

    This confirmed the widely held belief that using a soul with ranged auto-attacks will cause your charges to do more damage. In addition, it seemed to invalidate the point that using whetstones will cause a melee build to out damage a ranged build as whetstones clearly affect ranged damage as well as melee.

    Just for giggles, I decided to swap out the 2R points for 2 points in Nightblade, which should have done less damage. However, the results surprised me:

    W/Nightblade
    Exq. Whetstones
    Melee
    710
    Coarse Whetstones
    Melee
    670

    The +6% damage seems to outweigh the benefits of the ranged weapon modifier. In addition to this, you are also getting serrated blades procs from your melee auto attacks.

    This data causes me to raise a couple questions for the rogue gurus out there.

    1.Can you explain why having 2 points in Nightblade was causing me to do more damage than 2 points in Ranger? Does the balance of the souls change with gear? Or have we just been wrong about ranger being worth it?

    2.Will the increased charge damage and serrated blades outweigh the 2% flat crit bonus in terms of DPS? Or have we known NB will do more damage all along and just ignored it due to the ranged auto-attacks to make saboteur a true ranged spec?

    Thanks for your time, and hopefully we can get this cleared up!

    TL;DR Maybe Nightblade is better than Ranger as a third soul.
    Last edited by Tlim; 06-16-2011 at 12:16 AM.

  2. #2
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    All this search for nothing, you could have asked.

    Nightblade is better than Ranger by far and was always, somehow the dummies in this forums prefered Ranger over Nightblade.

    I think that heavily had to do with Sozu, and how people trust him because of "his spec posts" and when he mentioned the Sabo variety, but all those noobs forgot one thing.

    Sozu uses a Relic bow, not a 36 DPS like most or a 41.7 like most raid rogues, so his numbers with 2 Ranger were obviously higher than his melee numbers.


    Anyways i wouldnt even count the Charge difference when:

    Serrated Blades + auto attack + Poison Procs from Daggers > Ranged auto-attack and less Poison Procs

    Simple as that, there is no need to go into Charge damage math.

    Also as you noticed Whetstones do affect Saboteur a lot and more than other specs, when i test on dummies they add pretty much 200 or even more DPS, usually the dummy testing is around 1.050-70, with the stones it goes around to 1.3k compared to other specs which stones seem to give ~150 DPS or so.
    Last edited by potis; 06-16-2011 at 12:39 AM.

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    Oh i forgot to answer your questions though.

    Question 1:

    Simple fact, you are using the same weapons, same weapons being your MH and your Ranged, they are both of equal quality, aka a T3 weapon, hence when you get the 6% you see more damage.

    I repeat, there are many people in this forums that follow specs blindly without knowing what they are doing, there are MANY MANY rogues with a 36 DPS Ranged Weapon and a 25 DPS dagger, so 2 Ranger is obviously better but they dont know why.

    When your MH and Ranged are the same , aka 29.2/36 and 33.7/41.7 or 37.8/46.7 then you can do some real testing and figure out "Oh Nightblade is a better choice, oh look its more dps cause i am melee also".

    Question 2:

    The first scale, not even a question 2% crit is nothing in a raid environment for any T2 + geared rogue cause you are gonna be around if not above 50% critical.

    Second part of your question, yes the "better" rogues always knew NB was better, but the community doesnt always listen.

    Also you only take Ranger when your Ranged Weapon is better than your MH weapon, or when you are bad and cant stand the melee ranged and the effects that go with it.

    The second part is a big case of why many take the Ranger part without knowing why they do it, its just safer to stand away from the boss, isnt it, plus there are many "F OFF ITS NOT ALL ABOUT DPS LET ME HAVE FUN" so yeah.

    In the end WEAPON DAMAGE AKA WEAPON DPS is what you are going for scale wise as i already explained.
    Last edited by potis; 06-16-2011 at 12:56 AM.

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    Ascendant Dinadass's Avatar
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    It's pretty widely known that whetstones increase all attacks you make, not just melee ones, so that is not the reason people say melee will outperform ranged with 44sab.

    Melee 44sab outperforms ranged 44sab with similar quality weapons because of Serrated Blades, more poison procs, and more auto attacks which means more benefit from Spotter's Order.

    Putting 2 points into NB and using it as a melee spec will be the highest DPS, however you will lose the ability to auto attack from range that you have with 2 points in Ranger. That's the biggest reason for the 2 points in Ranger by the way... you need it in order to auto attack with your bow. That, combined with the slightly better DPS number for charge damage calculation, makes 2 ranger superior in my opinion. If you put 2 points into NB then you are basically using an inferior melee sab spec, since your DPS will drop by a much larger amount if you are forced to go ranged than it would if you had the 2 points in ranger.

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    1.Can you explain why having 2 points in Nightblade was causing me to do more damage than 2 points in Ranger? Does the balance of the souls change with gear? Or have we just been wrong about ranger being worth it?
    RANGED AUTOATTACKS.


    * and the 2% crit is not directly quantified in a raw test of crit blast charges. For a better assessment you should go back and de-factor the critical damage multiplier, and then re-estimate the weighted average DPS of the blast charge based on the different crit rates (2% higher for 2 Ranger). This is still not completely accurate, since the %crit does not apply to total real damage, and the AP affects your total DPS differently than just the blast charge, which gives a different weight to crit, but it's reasonably more accurate than just taking autocrit blast charges.

  6. #6
    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    2RNG is and always has been only more dps when at ranged.. if at melee you should go nb, this should be obvious. but you will not get the cruel vengeance procs or poison procs unless you have 2 rng if you are lazy (like myself) and stay at ranged. also 2 rng is better for pvp and you can be even lazier and use the same build for both!
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    Plane Walker Diay's Avatar
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    I don't think it's ever been a question that melee sab is superior to ranged sab, that is odd though that whetstones increase ranged damage.. I didn't know that.

    For myself, my dps spec is off-spec.. and I keep it as 2 RNG cause i'm only doing T2s and in T2s the ability to dps from range is worth it's weight in gold. Sure i'd do more dps as melee.. and with that comes the risk of meleeing and it's just not worth it.

    I'm sure if I was DPS main spec and raiding 4 days a week it would be a different story.

  8. #8
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    Like above poster I prefer 2 rng because of being able to attack from range and melee with one spec. I'd take 2 NB in a heartbeat if I could be in melee 100% of the time.

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    Prophet of Telara Sozu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    All this search for nothing, you could have asked.

    Nightblade is better than Ranger by far and was always, somehow the dummies in this forums prefered Ranger over Nightblade.

    I think that heavily had to do with Sozu, and how people trust him because of "his spec posts" and when he mentioned the Sabo variety, but all those noobs forgot one thing.

    Sozu uses a Relic bow, not a 36 DPS like most or a 41.7 like most raid rogues, so his numbers with 2 Ranger were obviously higher than his melee numbers.


    Anyways i wouldnt even count the Charge difference when:

    Serrated Blades + auto attack + Poison Procs from Daggers > Ranged auto-attack and less Poison Procs

    Simple as that, there is no need to go into Charge damage math.

    Also as you noticed Whetstones do affect Saboteur a lot and more than other specs, when i test on dummies they add pretty much 200 or even more DPS, usually the dummy testing is around 1.050-70, with the stones it goes around to 1.3k compared to other specs which stones seem to give ~150 DPS or so.
    Hate to say it but it's true....2 points in Ranger will FAR outperform 2 points in Nightblade. If you think otherwise then you obviously dont know what you are talking about.

    But you see...you are implying that a melee sab is a ranged sab when that's mildly re-tarded. How would you get serrated blades procs from range? Or did you forget this thread was about ranged saboteur? When someone wants a range spec that does not mean they want a range spec and play it in melee range. It means they want a RANGE spec.

    Oh and if your "dps" on your melee weapon is higher than your ranged, that would mean you are most likely using raid weapons too...Which makes me ask...Why would you not have a ranged weapon from raids too? I mean there's like 30 of them that drop. The point is...You ranged weapon REGARDLESS of whether it's raid or T2 will almost always have a higher top end than your melee weapons. And yes...I do have a relic bow. Was I to say nightblade sub is better even though it's not for me? lol That would sound kinda funny..."2 points in Ranger is better than 2 points in Nightblade UNLESS you have a ghetto ranged weapon and a SUPER ELITE T3 melee weapon." (because that's what it would take for your melee weapons to have higher top end than your ranged, even with whetstones)
    Last edited by Sozu; 06-16-2011 at 07:41 AM.

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    Prophet of Telara Sozu's Avatar
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    I just wanted to add that I HATE when people debate a "ranged" spec and say "you need to melee". That completely defeats the purpose of being a ranged class. This seems to be a trend in Rift. People bringing melee specs into a ranged debate. I dont understand how people can be so braindead.

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  11. #11
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    Given equal weapons 2 NB is better for meele sab and 2 RAN is better for pure ranged. Even the forum "dummies" have known this for a while. I don't think there was even ever a real debate on this.

  12. #12
    Prophet of Telara Sozu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyro View Post
    Given equal weapons 2 NB is better for meele sab and 2 RAN is better for pure ranged. Even the forum "dummies" have known this for a while. I don't think there was even ever a real debate on this.
    Herp da Derp derp.

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  13. #13
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    2rng is ranged sab. Deadly Dance sab outperforms 44/NB sab in melee anyway. 44 sab w/2 ranger does reasonably well in melee, for reasons repeated ad nauseum above. 44/Rng sab is more versatile. If the fight has lots of PBAOE around the boss or other reasons to stay ranged, then 44/Rng is obviously better. If you can get in to melee range every cycle for ~6 seconds (puncture, 4x spike charge, Deadly Strike, run back to range while continuing rotation) DD sab is better. If you can stay in melee DD sab gets even further ahead.
    2 points in NB removes the utility provided by 2Ranger's ability to auto attack at range. Since there are better melee builds than 44Sab, one of which even involves sab, why go melee 44sab?

  14. #14
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    Its cute that you got offended Sozu, and since i am using Fang of the Life Lord, i use 2 NB, I havent see a 2Ranger parse higher than 2 NB ever.

    Anyways if you bothered to read his spec.

    He asked why his charges show more damage when he is using 2 NB, because he has the same scaling weapons and the 6%.

    I dont see why you got so offended xD

    Also Hoko, Cruel Vengenace is up 24/7 even when you are at range and use 2 NB :O.

    Detonate+ charges etc every 6 seconds, duration 10 seconds.

  15. #15
    Prophet of Telara Sozu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Its cute that you got offended Sozu, and since i am using Fang of the Life Lord, i use 2 NB, I havent see a 2Ranger parse higher than 2 NB ever.

    Anyways if you bothered to read his spec.

    He asked why his charges show more damage when he is using 2 NB, because he has the same scaling weapons and the 6%.

    I dont see why you got so offended xD

    Also Hoko, Cruel Vengenace is up 24/7 even when you are at range and use 2 NB :O.

    Detonate+ charges etc every 6 seconds, duration 10 seconds.
    Offended? lol

    Far from offended, I just find it hilarious that you bring my name up out of nowhere. I've never made a Saboteur guide. All I ever said was that Saboteur is better than Ranger in most cases, whether you go ranged or melee doesnt really matter. It will still outperform Ranger. But I'd love to see a ranged sab with NB sub outperform a ranged sab with Ranger sub (both using the same weapons)...It just wont happen lol. The only way it would happen is if you are completely gimped on your ranged slot with like Rune Carved Bow or some crap versus a relic weapon.

    A bow is similar to a 2handed weapon in that it ALWAYS has higher top end than a single handed melee weapon. So in all honesty it all depends on how gimp your bow/gun is. It's not a matter of "this is better than that" it's a matter of "which is best for my gear setup" and "Do i want to melee or not".

    Anyway, off to work. Have fun debating over 2 out of 66 points spent in a spec lol. It's really going to make or break you!
    Last edited by Sozu; 06-16-2011 at 10:25 AM.

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