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Thread: Riftstalker - Current & Future State

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default Riftstalker - Current & Future State

    Hey all,

    I wanted to start a thread to gather feedback from all of the Riftstalker tanks out there. Other threads exist with some useful data in them, however most of them are almost a month old since the last post and contained pre-1.2 data in them.

    This isn't intended to be a guide, as there are plenty of those on the forum for people to leverage. What I wanted to do was to get an idea of what other people think of Rogue tanking, areas where we are strong and where we need Trion to address some things. With 1.3 on the horizon, I felt this was a worthwhile discussion to open up.

    "The Good"

    Areas where I feel Riftstalker tanking is going well:

    1. Magic mitigation. Rogues are in a great place when it comes to tanking magic based fights. No changes or fixes needed here.
    2. Threat generation. I believe Rogues are in a good spot when it comes to general threat generation when compared to other tanks. (See "The Bad" for my rant about Battlefield Awareness and AOE taunts)
    3. Health Pool. No problems here. Plenty of options to increase or tradeoff health for avoidance.
    4. Mobility. A given for Rogues.
    5. Unique feel to the Soul. I enjoy tanking on my Rogue. It is more engaging and more interesting than classes I have tanked on in other MMO's. I strongly feel that the uniqueness of the Rogue tank soul was "job well done" from a development standpoint.

    "The Bad"

    1. Lack of an interrupt. I find it hilarious that the only option for a Rogue tank is to forego additional damage mitigation and far more attractive tanking talents to pick up what should be a basic tanking ability given to all tanking souls.
    2. Scatter The Shadows. It baffles me why the 51 pt Riftstalker talent is the same as a 38 point Nightblade ability. I'm not asking for NB to receive a nerf, however can you make the 51 pt RS one a bit more desireable? How about some baked in damage mitigation for x secs after it wears off?
    3. Defer Death. A complete waste of a 38 point ability for a tank. How about something more like Twilight Shelter or Blackout? If not, how about a full heal?
    4. Planar Switch. This has to be one of the worst 31 point abilities in the game. This is likely left over from when it was more useful in a previous stage of the games creation, but what good does this do a RS on anything other than trash? Even then, I dont use it nor do I need to. Which brings me to...
    5. AOE taunt abilities. With Battlefield Awareness up, a Warrior Tank basically just needs to remember where his Spotters Order key is in order to maintain threat on anything within 10 meters that is in combat. This includes things that other tanks are trying to be useful in a raid, and tank. Its quite annoying to have BA pull something off of another tank, since its currently working just like an AOE taunt for the Warrior. There are a few more key uses to this - mainly initial snap aggro on larger packs of mobs, that decreases the usefulness of other tanks in those scenarios. Battlefield Awareness either needs to be given to every tank, in some manifestation or another, or removed/reworked to be less of a god mode threat buff.
    6. Lack of a threat transfer. Rogues need something like intercept that will transfer threat from other players (i.e. high AOE DPS or from Healers) onto them. Given the fact that Rogues have to spend time loading up their mitigation buffs to even tank at all, it would be great if we can get some support from a threat transfer to ease into these buffs, rather than have every cold pull require a pre-duel or popping dmg cooldowns. This would also help with healing aggro, which seems to not take into account if the heal actually healed a player or not, another general tanking gripe.
    7. Solve the block problem. As stated numerous times by other players, if physical damage in this game continues to ramp up to counter warrior and cleric block abilities, Rogues will be left in the dust. If we can get some support from say a buff we can apply to ourselves that will help reduce phycial damage taken, this may help. Regardless of the solution we need this to continue to be top of mind for Rogue tank devs.
    8. The radius of Rift Disturbance. Can we please have this increased to something more useful? It's far to small as it is.
    9. Instigate. Both Warriors and Clerics get more from their single target taunt ability. Can we at least get a single target version of Planar Attraction, rather than a generic uninteresting taunt that does no dmg and exacerbates the lack of an interrupt in a lot of cases?

    Thats about all I have for now and yes I do realize that there is a lot more info here about areas for improvement than there are for the positive aspects of Rogue tanking. Don't take that as me thinking the soul sucks, just take that as me having a lot to say after tonights raid -- which went very well for us, but did continue to highlight areas where Rogues need some love.

    -Angry
    Last edited by Angryexwife; 06-06-2011 at 11:27 PM.

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    Champion Cinerus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angryexwife View Post
    "The Bad"

    2. Scatter The Shadows. It baffles me why the 51 pt Riftstalker talent is the same as a 38 point Nightblade ability. I'm not asking for NB to receive a nerf, however can you make the 51 pt RS one a bit more desireable? How about some baked in damage mitigation for x secs after it wears off?
    I think Scatter the Shadows is fine as it is, although it might not be as unique as it should be (Nightblade...). It has saved me many times and is a key ability in certain fights (for me at least, like Greenscale).

    Defer Death on the other hand.... I hardly ever get to use it. An idea would be to make the damage taken non-lethal, so you could actually use it as an emergency and then phase shift away as soon as it starts to wear off. Right not, that's just too much of a risk, since you can't see how much damage you've already taken and you might not survive.


    EDIT: one more thing I really dislike is the delay on Rift Disturbance. Anyone else noticed this? When you cast it, the animation works fine, but the damage is delayed for about half a second. Very annoying. It used to be fine, but in some patch a while ago (can't remember which one, isn't in the patch notes either) they apparently changed it.
    Last edited by Cinerus; 06-06-2011 at 11:39 PM.

  3. #3
    Telaran
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    Scatter isnt bad, that was not the intention of that item in the list. I was attempting to convey that its good, but clearly not 51 points good. An example of that sits in the Nightblade soul. I think it should be better than it is, to earn the spot as the 51 pt RS ability. Make it last longer or do something more beneficial than it does today or lower the cooldown on it.

    Re: Rift Disturbance. There is a slight delay, but it seems to still do the trick. The radius of it is poor, however.
    Last edited by Angryexwife; 06-06-2011 at 11:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angryexwife View Post
    Scatter isnt bad, that was not the intention of that item in the list. I was attempting to convey that its good, but clearly not 51 points good. An example of that sits in the Nightblade soul. I think it should be better than it is, to earn the spot as the 51 pt RS ability. Make it last longer or do something more beneficial than it does today or lower the cooldown on it.

    Re: Rift Disturbance. There is a slight delay, but it seems to still do the trick. The radius of it is poor, however.
    Considering I wouldn't ever want to give up 51 RS, I think StS is fine as it is for a 51 point ability.

    About Rift Disturbance. Try pulling with Shadow Assault -> Rift Disturbance (Shadow Blitz is on cooldown for example). Good chance the mobs will start running towards your healer before they actually get hit by RD.

  5. #5
    Telaran
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    On StS: I agree its useful and I wouldn't give it up either - there should be some distinction between it and the very similar Nightblade skill, however.

    On RD: I have had that happen as well. I've also had a mob 5 inches or so away just not get hit by the RD, when visually it should have, and it just runs off on its own merry way to chase down the healer.

    On a general note, healing aggro needs to be looked at and toned down. There is no reason why a hot on a tank that hasnt taken any damage at all, should pull threat. The same thing applies to Bard Anthems, Warrior Bonds and other Beneficial Buffs (Tip: watch where the wolves on Hylas go - straight to the bard with run speed turned on) it is just absurb what actually generates threat and the degree at which it does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angryexwife View Post
    "The Bad"
    1. So terrible in this game thats based around build flexibility that we have to build our characters in certain ways to gain access to certain things that 1 soul doesn't have! TERRIBLE! Clearly trion forgot that all souls should have everything to begin with so we don't have to.

    2. Meh StS is fine, it may not be unique but its one of the best emergency buttons a tank could ask for an it comes with small amount of hp and mitigation as well, dare say it would be massively improved if they'd make it work with defer death even if it only removed half the damage from it or such.

    3. Defer death is definitely the weakest of the rift emergency buttons but it does get its uses and im glad to have it those times it does, though I find it comical that your replacement suggestions would just become #2 again! Sure give it a tweak such as allowing its final hit to be reduced to survivable (or drop it to only take you to 1 hp minimum) but it does have its uses unlike lots of abilities in lots of souls which are only gained as access to higher better powers.

    4. Plenty of use in planar switch, if you can't figure out how then you've not really read the description, cheap free combo point thats off the global cooldown that can be used to save your combo points to a new target helping you put up defenses etc. Also the longest range move a riftstalker gets in his soul so can be their initial pull move for ranged pulls.

    5. Rift disturbance + Blitz = no AoE threat issues... ever... if your using both of these and you are you've probably forgotten to put guradian phase and guarded steel up. What would be the point of having more than 1 tank soul if every tank soul had exactly the same stuff in it?

    6. Not really needed, you can generate threat fairly quickly and easily to a point where you don't really need such a move, it'd be handy to make sure but then so would making it so npc's can only ever attack a tank if there's one alive... which would sort of make threat tools useless and pointless.

    7. Yeah if only we had something like a couple of combo point finishers that would boost our physical mitigation and put on block like absorbs and possibly even a combo generator that increases our all around mitigation! Then we would be great!

    8. Rift Disturbance radius is fine, its wide enough to hit entire spread out groups, make it any wider and you start hitting groups you shouldn't be. Only time its ever missed anything for me is when swamped by adds and hitting the target cap (yeah up yours squirrel mistress and shambler mistress!)

    9. Another Meh thing, would be nice to have it warp the target like planar attraction, specially as warlord recently received our AoE teleport taunt, but its not really necessary, instigate does the job its there for, only times it doesn't is if I use it at bad times (such as at the start of a mage mobs long cast or on something over a 3 second run away from my RD radius)

    Sure all these things could be tweaked/given though lots of it would really piss of the other tanks who actually have to build with multiple souls to gain access to all the tools, and none of its really... NEEDED rogues are good and will probably remain good for a long while until trion does something silly and starts making peoples stats go ridiculously high.

    Some of the complaints seem to be soul envy at what the calling that has majority souls as tank souls and depends on multiple builds to be best for each tanking situation gets compared to what we get with our 1 soul.

    And other complaints are just "this ability isn't as good as I wanted it to be" which every calling and every soul could do a near endless list about. Sure everything could be better, but then everything would be so much easier to the point of boredom :/

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    1) Not really a problem in raids, and for experts you can spec into it if you really want it.
    2) I somewhat agree, it's powerful but not unique. Wouldn't mind a tweak, but I won't lament the absence of one either.
    3) This one I agree with. Not sure what I'd replace it with, but as it is it's a bloody risky ability to use. You can click it off after a few seconds, otherwise it might kill you. Maybe swap this out with a passive that boosts your mitigation or something?
    4) Agree. Useful on trash by all means, but not that useful. If I want to range pull I can shoot the bugger with an arrow, if not it's only somewhat useful on trash. A bit too situational IMO, I'd like to see it turned into a taunt/pull ability instead.
    5) Our AoE threats are pretty ok as is, but they're somewhat iffy if there's a branch or small bumb between you and the mob in question. Fix that issue and I'm happy as they are right now.
    6) Yes please. Not needed, but it would be nice to have the option of focusing on getting mitigation up rather than snap threat on a pull.
    7) Meh, I think we're fine as is. We have 35% absorb on everything, and then roughly 50% of physical mitigation after that. I'd like to have more essences and tanking gear with dodge instead of block though.
    8) Radius is fine, it's just that any bump in the ground will let them "LOS" it.
    9) Instigate is fine as is, but I'd rather have Planar Attraction work like a grip/pull.

    My biggest beef with rogue tanking is that we're a wee bit squishy right after a pull. Make the Rift Guard and Rift Barrier scale the same way percentage wise and I'll be quite happy. Do that and fix the AoE threat ability issue and I'll be a happy tanker

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    Rift Disciple
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    I'm thinking the biggest issue for Rogue tanking is the lack of gear, mainly good rogue tanking essences. (I'm getting tired of seeing all these great looking cleric tanking items drop).

    Otherwise...
    I'm satisfied with RS tanking ability. While I would love to have a interrupt in the soul tree, I have enough points left over to grab it from the BD tree.


    I think the biggest issue RS tanks have is when facing large groups of mobs that are not clumped up. Example is the ghosts in xRD. As they're spread out enough where the RS AoE abilities can not hit them all.

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    Xsi
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    ... use Defer Death for the combat opening sequence to build your necessary tank defenses/threat ...

    Stop trying to use it as an "oh crap" button.
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    It would be nice if they replaced Defer Death with StS, and then gave us a more interesting 51 point ability, maybe something along the lines of no cooldowns on shifting for 30 sec, or so.

    That would add alot of flexibility in RS tank builds, since StS wouldn't require 51 points, and get rid of an ability that hardly any tank uses.

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    Xsi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krazed59 View Post
    It would be nice if they replaced Defer Death with StS, and then gave us a more interesting 51 point ability, maybe something along the lines of no cooldowns on shifting for 30 sec, or so.

    That would add alot of flexibility in RS tank builds, since StS wouldn't require 51 points, and get rid of an ability that hardly any tank uses.
    30 seconds of no cooldown teleport would break PvP.

    What rogue tanks need is a "passive" threat generation for being in proximity of mobs similar to Battlefield Awareness as noted above. It probably should be a lingering passive threat buff added to ports while in guardian phase. But I would just recommend adding it to Improved Guardian Phase and be done with it.

    There's still a use for Defer Death (see my post above) - no need to remove it.
    Last edited by Xsi; 06-07-2011 at 06:39 AM.
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    rogue tanking is pretty good and fun. we have good survival, we move best out of any tank, and its tricky and challenging so its not snoozefest. our aggro is much better now after they buffed rift disturbance....and if you tank mostly raid, then planar attraction and stuff like that arent that applicable anymore....its perfectly fine the way it is for instances, maybe shorten CD a little.

    scatter the shadows is da bomb...anyone who says otherwise is laughing...

    defer death is limited use, very specific CD, but does have its OMG uses.....like give your raid that 10 extra seconds to get those last few percent down....thats probably about it...and if you have astute healers, and you let them know your popping it, you MIGHT not die afterwards tbh....


    the ony thing, is IMO we become more marginalised after last patch cause they buffed warriors magic mitigation (VK i think)....so that used to be our big advantage over warriors (except mobility, but that not that useful in raids)....now warriors can BASICALLY tank magic mobs like us to a certain extent...

    other thing is, and not sure a patch will change it really, people have an impression of rogue tanks being squishier and not as good tanks...probably those same people spend a lotta time dungeoning with crappy rogue tanks....but alas, this perception exists

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    I really only have one problem with tanking on my Riftstalker...i have no shield therefore no blocking. Why I keep finding leather items with +block on them is a mystery to me. (Yes I know warriors can wear leather and carry shields, whether they should is another debate) It is entirely possible that I'm just confused, wouldn't be the first or last time.

    I love the class (although I play my bard role more often) and tanking on a rogue in particular.
    I agree that the 51 RS ability isn't great (or needed, I went with 49 RS).

    Not sure I would change anything. We are squishy early in a fight, but have amazing mobility and cool abilities. Seems just about right to me. Hoping they let us carry shields at some point though.

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    Just poppin by to thakn you all for taking the time to have a constructive conversation about the RS good and bads.

    I have experienced a number of the issues in the OP's post, especially the initial threat issue with RS missing mobs or the delay it takes to actually land the damage. I bought a new machine to try to fix this issue, even as I hated my healer getting gibbed and I thought it was just my personal fail, and not something the game would do.

    With the rest of the rogue tanking though I enjoy it, I think the challenge is there and the fact that we are mobile makes tanking not so much of a yawn. Communicating with your healers though is huge, as they do assume rogues are squishier in t2's simply due to the ease warriors have while steaming through like freight trains.

    Again, thanks guys. I Will open a lot of trouble pulls with PS isntead of RD, as it seems that RD delay has a chance to miss, which is annoying to say the least.
    Last edited by Endlaw; 06-07-2011 at 09:00 AM.
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    Anyone who has worked in customer service knows that customers will always complain about something. Trion could give out kittens to everyone and you'd still get people saying "Where's my puppy Trion? In fact, you should have given me a puppy two weeks ago. Don't you realize that most of your customers are puppy-lovers and not kitten-lovers? If you don't give us puppies right away, you're going to lose EVEN MORE subs."

    Possibly followed by someone else saying "Trion never advertised this as a puppy-centric game, 80% of players want kittens, get over it."

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    Telaran
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    Overall Dasorine - your post is just full of venom. I especially love how you assume its all L2P. However, here are some responses for you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dasorine View Post
    1. So terrible in this game thats based around build flexibility that we have to build our characters in certain ways to gain access to certain things that 1 soul doesn't have! TERRIBLE! Clearly trion forgot that all souls should have everything to begin with so we don't have to.
    Ok, I will play along with this. I have my 51 points in Riftstalker, as the community at large has tested and agreed that the foundation for builds starts there. I raid also as I stated in my post so going less than 51 would be sub-optimal. Now, what exactly am I going to get from Bladedancer to make the 12 point investment worth it? Dodge, Reprisal and Strike Back are great talents. Then what? Hit? Nope - dont need that I have excess hit as it is. Some extra damage on Keen Strike? Hmmm no I wouldn't have any use for that either.

    Get my point now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dasorine View Post
    2. Meh StS is fine, it may not be unique but its one of the best emergency buttons a tank could ask for an it comes with small amount of hp and mitigation as well, dare say it would be massively improved if they'd make it work with defer death even if it only removed half the damage from it or such.
    If you read what I said about it. I said it was good. I also said it was replicated at 38 points in Nightblade. So, just doing a one for one comparison quickly here - why are a 51 point RS talent and a 38 point Nightblade talent the same thing? I'm asking for that to be reviewed and to make them unique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dasorine View Post
    . Defer death is definitely the weakest of the rift emergency buttons but it does get its uses and im glad to have it those times it does, though I find it comical that your replacement suggestions would just become #2 again! Sure give it a tweak such as allowing its final hit to be reduced to survivable (or drop it to only take you to 1 hp minimum) but it does have its uses unlike lots of abilities in lots of souls which are only gained as access to higher better powers.
    Defer Death is a complete waste. The only time it is useful is when you need to give your raid 10 seconds to kill something they should have been able to do without you taking that measure. On the flip side - if you dont have a raid full of failures, its completely useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dasorine View Post
    4. Plenty of use in planar switch, if you can't figure out how then you've not really read the description, cheap free combo point thats off the global cooldown that can be used to save your combo points to a new target helping you put up defenses etc. Also the longest range move a riftstalker gets in his soul so can be their initial pull move for ranged pulls.
    Its not a question of understanding what it does, the abilities tooltip text makes that quite clear. However, its a pile of garbage. Unless there is additional text missing it costs 25 energy, deals absolutely no threat at all and on a single target - will allow you to only gain a combo point for that 25 energy. I dont have issues with combo points, or even mob switching for that matter. I do have issues with abilities with limited to no use. As I understand it, this ability used to transfer threat along with it. Now thats more useful and something I could get behind as a 31 point skill in a tanking soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dasorine View Post
    5. Rift disturbance + Blitz = no AoE threat issues... ever... if your using both of these and you are you've probably forgotten to put guradian phase and guarded steel up. What would be the point of having more than 1 tank soul if every tank soul had exactly the same stuff in it?
    This is terribly inaccurate. Tell you what - go in a raid and tank alongside a warrior. Then come back here and tell me what happens to your perfect AOE threat combination (which all rogues use - its not a L2P issue). The moment he uses spotters order you will be reduced to a spectator, provided he has Battlefield Awareness up. If your comment was specifically about 5 mans, 5 mans overall are a joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dasorine View Post
    6. Not really needed, you can generate threat fairly quickly and easily to a point where you don't really need such a move, it'd be handy to make sure but then so would making it so npc's can only ever attack a tank if there's one alive... which would sort of make threat tools useless and pointless.
    You must not have any Warlord specced warriors in your guild. What you described is exactly how Battlefield Awareness works, in a nutshell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dasorine View Post
    7. Yeah if only we had something like a couple of combo point finishers that would boost our physical mitigation and put on block like absorbs and possibly even a combo generator that increases our all around mitigation! Then we would be great!
    You must be joking, right? Those will not scale as is. Equally geared and specced Warriors are taking substantially less damage from physical sources. The only way to continue to challenge them in this area is to increase the amount of damage places like Hammerknell will dish out. Eventually Riftstalker abilities like Rift Guard and Guarded Steel will no longer cut it. I believe Ciderhelm (Sodahelm) had a good post about it. If you havent read that yet - maybe you should. ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dasorine View Post
    8. Rift Disturbance radius is fine, its wide enough to hit entire spread out groups, make it any wider and you start hitting groups you shouldn't be. Only time its ever missed anything for me is when swamped by adds and hitting the target cap (yeah up yours squirrel mistress and shambler mistress!)
    Its not just the target limit, there are radius and timing issues for RD that need to be looked at. As it is today there are a number of encounters a RS will have to compensate for the small radius of RD that warrants looking at it. Picking up adds on the Golem boss in GP is a good example of where the radius of the ability is frustrating and needs to be reviewed. Since I fully expect another L2P response - just know that this is doable and I am not saying the encounter is too diffiucult for a Rogue tank. I am saying that RD specifically should be looked at in the context of this fight as its downfalls at the moment (delay on dmg occuring, small radius) are magified here. Your example, a 5man, is a wash for a RS and those trash adds dont live long enough to even matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dasorine View Post
    9. Another Meh thing, would be nice to have it warp the target like planar attraction, specially as warlord recently received our AoE teleport taunt, but its not really necessary, instigate does the job its there for, only times it doesn't is if I use it at bad times (such as at the start of a mage mobs long cast or on something over a 3 second run away from my RD radius)
    Plucking Lost Souls with instigate is pretty lame. Even then - Planar Attraction doesnt yield the intended effect either. Instigate is far too vanilla for it to be of much use, espseically given that only Rogues have such a basic taunt without additional utility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dasorine View Post
    Sure all these things could be tweaked/given though lots of it would really piss of the other tanks who actually have to build with multiple souls to gain access to all the tools, and none of its really... NEEDED rogues are good and will probably remain good for a long while until trion does something silly and starts making peoples stats go ridiculously high.
    This is untrue as you move up the tiers of raiding. Has your entire response been from the vantage point of 5 mans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dasorine View Post
    Some of the complaints seem to be soul envy at what the calling that has majority souls as tank souls and depends on multiple builds to be best for each tanking situation gets compared to what we get with our 1 soul.

    And other complaints are just "this ability isn't as good as I wanted it to be" which every calling and every soul could do a near endless list about. Sure everything could be better, but then everything would be so much easier to the point of boredom :/
    Its not soul envy. Its feedback based on actual experiences in raiding environments. MMO's are an iterative process based on player feedback and their development direction and goals. There was no such post for Riftstalkers and given that 1.2 contained very little in terms of changes for Riftstalkers, its about time we have some discussion for them to chew on.
    Last edited by Angryexwife; 06-07-2011 at 09:52 AM.

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