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Thread: Bards have no role in this game other than 1 per raid

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Bards have no role in this game other than 1 per raid

    Hi.

    I'm going to try to post constructively about the role of bards in this game. Every raid should have a bard. Their motifs are great and having a bard is numerically similar to having one extra DPS and 1 extra healer in your raid, providing they keep their buffs up.

    This is the only realistic role for bards in this game. Soloing they are totally pointless as any other soul is more efficient. In 5 mans they do not do enough healing and not nearly enough DPS to take one along. And their buffs are still useful, but buffing 2 other DPS and 1 healer with 5% crit and healing and some extra stats isn't going to replace a pure class contributing so much more.

    You could make a case that a bard supporting a pure healer in 5 man experts is useful, but that is such a small window of opportunity until everyone is geared that it is pretty limited in scope. Also, now that 5 man experts are considerably not as difficult, it is difficult to justify even that, as most of my 5 mans are run with just a healer by themselves doing absolutely fine.

    Even on a ten man raid they do not contribute enough to replace a pure DPS or healer, or even a chloromancer.

    This leaves players like myself, who would like to have been a dedicated bard having to spec into another soul in order to get groups, or at least to feel useful. Standing there healing people with cadence and codas who are already full health is kind of silly. The DPS contribution of a bard is even sillier. I've seen geared cholomancers break 300 DPS on bosses while solo healing 5 mans. A bard solo healing a T2 is so laughably ridiculous it is not even worth mentioning.

    Bards should be able to solo heal a 5 man. If they can't do that, then there is no point in being one in a 5 man. Either that or they need their DPS contribution to be tripled or quadrupled.

    Bards should generate combo points on the target they have selected when playing a motif. Or motifs need to have their duration bumped up to 10x their current duration. It has been said before and I have no idea why this hasn't been addressed. Recasting 5 buffs every 30 seconds is beyond irritating. If playing motifs builds combo points then at least it feels like we are doing something.

    Bard buffs should stack with everything. With the possible exception of anthem of fervor, bringing a bard along should mean that the party/raid benefits from all the buffs a bard has.

    Bards should have access to unique bard loots. Bard damage, and subsequently bard healing, scales terribly with gear. A brand new fresh level 50 bard is about 90% as good statistically as the best geared bard in the game (discounting hit requirements etc). Let bards loot upgraded instruments that give them marked bonuses to their cadence and codas.
    Last edited by puddle; 05-27-2011 at 12:29 AM.

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    Welcome to the world of the 51 Point Archon ..

    Only souls you see getting a tweak or a smack with the nerf bat are those most whined about in PVP. seems thats where they do their balancing from.

    And I agree with you, Bards need something to bring them in line, but then all 51 Pointers do, seems dumb to have the ability to full spec a role but in effect it nerfs down a roles usefulness/need by groups.

    Go onto the PVP forums, moan a lot there, make a nuisance of yourself and the Devs will prob listen then.

  3. #3
    Telaran Syneous's Avatar
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    Welcome to patch 1.2.

    On the bright side you can heal T1 and T2's with a good tank.
    Last edited by Syneous; 05-27-2011 at 02:37 PM.

  4. #4
    Champion of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epoxin View Post
    Welcome to the world of the 51 Point Archon ..

    Only souls you see getting a tweak or a smack with the nerf bat are those most whined about in PVP. seems thats where they do their balancing from.

    And I agree with you, Bards need something to bring them in line, but then all 51 Pointers do, seems dumb to have the ability to full spec a role but in effect it nerfs down a roles usefulness/need by groups.

    Go onto the PVP forums, moan a lot there, make a nuisance of yourself and the Devs will prob listen then.
    And even then they won't fix the issues that actually need fixing. Instead of working to make an entire soul viable again (doms) they elect to spend dev time killing rogue flag capping and stone running builds.

    Don't blame the pvp crowd for this - we sure didn't ask for it.

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple magra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puddle View Post
    Every raid should have a bard.
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by puddle View Post
    Even on a ten man raid they do not contribute enough to replace a pure DPS or healer, or even a chloromancer.
    Not Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by puddle View Post
    I've seen geared cholomancers break 300 DPS on bosses while solo healing 5 mans. A bard solo healing a T2 is so laughably ridiculous it is not even worth mentioning.
    Stop comparing a healing soul and a support soul. Also, you are not there to do DPS, you are not there to heal, if you are 51pt bard you are in the group for buffs.

    If you really want to solo heal and do dps just run the gimmicky Deadly Dance bard spec. There you go, solo heal T2's and do well over 300 dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by puddle View Post
    Bards should generate combo points on the target they have selected when playing a motif.
    This would most likely mean we have to then "have" a target to build combo points, still like your idea? what are you going to do with those awesome 5 combo points you just built up? You should have had 5 prior to refreshing motif's in case you needed to throw a litte padded healing out, tisk tisk.

    Quote Originally Posted by puddle View Post
    Recasting 5 buffs every 30 seconds is beyond irritating.
    You'd be pressing buttons doing something. Compared to the Bard class in EQ1 this is a joke to get things going, oh no I have to press five buttons every 30 seconds. It's your job to press these buttons, if it's irritating, play a different role.

    Quote Originally Posted by puddle View Post
    Bard buffs should stack with everything.
    The moon should be pink as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by puddle View Post
    Bards should have access to unique bard loots.
    Only if our ranged slot turns into a Lute slot, then ok, other than that, we don't need unique loot.

    Quote Originally Posted by puddle View Post
    Bard damage, and subsequently bard healing, scales terribly with gear.
    Probably because you are not a DPS or Healer, you are Support. Imagine that...

    Quote Originally Posted by puddle View Post
    A brand new fresh level 50 bard is about 90% as good statistically as the best geared bard in the game
    This isn't true. Although for the sake of what the Bard class provides, you "could" bring a naked 50 into your raid and provide the same essential components that a fully geared does, barring that they don't die all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by puddle View Post
    I'm sorry for posting this thread Strider, you're right! I really didn't stop and think exactly what a Bard is, a SUPPORT soul! Man am I dumb.
    Don't be so hard on yourself, champ.
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  6. #6
    RIFT Guide Writer VampiricDemise's Avatar
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    Trion had made some comments in sprucing up 51 point specs (the "pures") to be more attractive in going oppose to hybrid builds. Whether or not this will include Bard, we can only hope.

    But it does suck as a support in a raid or a dungeon even to spam 5 30 second buffs and use weak damaging abilities that heal as well. There does need to be some adjustments to improve the quality of being a Bard without having to gimp what little useful tools we do get late in the soul tree. My personal ones would be to have the ranging talents work for Cadence from the Marksman soul and a better modifier of AP for bard skills so that we will scale a be a little more helpful beyond our buffs.

    And far as "you only need 1 bard per raid": yes, you could only run one bard per raid but our raid runs with two. Makes my life easier because I don't have to herd the mages and clerics to give them their buffs and then the rogues and warriors theirs and plus there is a longer energy burn with two Joys going back to back.
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  7. #7
    Koe
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    Uh? Bard belongs.

    5-man:

    44 bard/17sin/5nb can solo heal most trash and some bosses. Once you get geared, it can solo heal pretty much everything.

    34 bard/15bd/17sin is good for offheals, buffs, and DPS. Puts out 350-600 DPS or so, depending on gear, while healing and buffing.


    10-man: Even more important than 20man.


    Edit: Also, you're so wrong on so many points I'm calling it a troll post. So, I'll leave it with what I said above.
    Last edited by Koe; 05-27-2011 at 08:59 PM.
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  8. #8
    Rift Disciple
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    Are you serious op? Bards are awesome if played right my raid takes 2 one melee support one caster support. I think as a whole the rogue archtype is the only one with 8 useful pve souls. Followed closely by clerics and mages. Bards also got the redicleous rez which is beyond stupid. I do agree that your dps abilities need reworked but not more dps I would vote to have the dps lowered and energy costs lowers a bit and get procs from them that would increase your healing ability or debuffed to dex with a self dex buff attached. Also a stun and an amnesia. That's about all I would say would even be acceptable to give to an already more than complete archtype.

  9. #9
    Rift Chaser Octavian2011's Avatar
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    I hit almost 700 HPS on Greenscale the other night as bard and I'm not running deadly strike. Imagine what I could have hit with the deadly strike build. I think they're in a decent place atm, although I wouldn't mind if they consolidated some of the motifs and gave bard some sort of single target direct heal(maybe something on a 1 min cooldown) that doesn't require combo points.
    Last edited by Octavian2011; 05-28-2011 at 05:23 AM.


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  10. #10
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    I don't think it is that cut and dry. When u are just starting GSB it can work well with 2 depending on the fight and how deep you run with pure healers. Being able to run 2 anthems and 2 fan fares can be very useful when starting. When you are geared up then swap to a dps role. That is the beauty of this game peeps, if the raid gets geared up to the point you do not need as much utility or healers then you just have someone swap to dps and kill stuff.

    Now I am not saying utility couldn't use some tweaking, but issues like this really have more to do with player inflexibility. I would rather bard than dps, but when I don't need to bard I just swap my source engine and my role and blow stuff up. If you were hoping for an eq2 like experience where you could be simply an okay player, but you were a bard or enchanter so you had your choice of raid slots, this game isn't it, and I am glad for it. It used to drive me nuts that I needed to fire on all cylinders as a healer, where the support classes could phone in their performance in all but server/ww best guilds.

  11. #11
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by magra View Post
    You'd be pressing buttons doing something. Compared to the Bard class in EQ1 this is a joke to get things going, oh no I have to press five buttons every 30 seconds. It's your job to press these buttons, if it's irritating, play a different role.
    Why do people always bring this up in the face of motif's being boring? Playing a Bard in EQ1 is an engaging experience that requires thought. Mindlessly hitting the same 5 buttons every 30 seconds for a passive effect is not. That's the problem.

  12. #12
    Shield of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellis View Post
    Why do people always bring this up in the face of motif's being boring? Playing a Bard in EQ1 is an engaging experience that requires thought. Mindlessly hitting the same 5 buttons every 30 seconds for a passive effect is not. That's the problem.
    ^ thats pretty much it right there.

    if you played a bard in EQ or FFXI you know what a well designed bard plays like. it doesnt just sit there and hit 5 buttons over and over. no "class" should be so monotonous and boring its easily the most garbage soul in the game as far as enjoyment in playing.

    Other games had engaging bard play. Rift bard basically slowly lulls you to sleep as you repeatedly hit the same 5-7 buttons over and over.
    Last edited by BlackZilla; 05-28-2011 at 06:57 AM.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by magra View Post
    Correct.



    Not Correct.



    Stop comparing a healing soul and a support soul. Also, you are not there to do DPS, you are not there to heal, if you are 51pt bard you are in the group for buffs.

    If you really want to solo heal and do dps just run the gimmicky Deadly Dance bard spec. There you go, solo heal T2's and do well over 300 dps.



    This would most likely mean we have to then "have" a target to build combo points, still like your idea? what are you going to do with those awesome 5 combo points you just built up? You should have had 5 prior to refreshing motif's in case you needed to throw a litte padded healing out, tisk tisk.



    You'd be pressing buttons doing something. Compared to the Bard class in EQ1 this is a joke to get things going, oh no I have to press five buttons every 30 seconds. It's your job to press these buttons, if it's irritating, play a different role.



    The moon should be pink as well.



    Only if our ranged slot turns into a Lute slot, then ok, other than that, we don't need unique loot.



    Probably because you are not a DPS or Healer, you are Support. Imagine that...



    This isn't true. Although for the sake of what the Bard class provides, you "could" bring a naked 50 into your raid and provide the same essential components that a fully geared does, barring that they don't die all the time.



    Don't be so hard on yourself, champ.
    You're an idiot, and should probably go back to WOW. Every single one of your "arguments" can be boiled down to the fact that "support specs" are totally pointless in anything but a 20 man raid, because their buffs don't work out mathematically to be even remotely close to replacing a pure healer or a pure DPS. Wow 5% crit and 5% heals/dmg reduc. and some +dmg debuffs. Yeah that is really going to replace someone putting out even below average numbers on a 5 man. Any half decent healer has zero problems healing 5 mans by themselves, which renders bards even more useless because cadence is doing crap all.

    But really, have fun sitting there as a bard going 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 every 30 seconds and thinking you're awesome and that bards rock. Looking at the quality of your posts, I'm sure you won't have a problem deluding yourself into it.

  14. #14
    Plane Walker Cormyat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puddle View Post
    You're an idiot, and should probably go back to WOW. Every single one of your "arguments" can be boiled down to the fact that "support specs" are totally pointless in anything but a 20 man raid, because their buffs don't work out mathematically to be even remotely close to replacing a pure healer or a pure DPS. Wow 5% crit and 5% heals/dmg reduc. and some +dmg debuffs. Yeah that is really going to replace someone putting out even below average numbers on a 5 man. Any half decent healer has zero problems healing 5 mans by themselves, which renders bards even more useless because cadence is doing crap all.

    But really, have fun sitting there as a bard going 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 every 30 seconds and thinking you're awesome and that bards rock. Looking at the quality of your posts, I'm sure you won't have a problem deluding yourself into it.
    ^This.^

    I'd way rather have an Archon than a bard in a 10-man any day. I'd way rather have an additional DPS'er. No, the buffs do NOT make up for the 700-900 DPS you lose with a bard.
    Last edited by Cormyat; 05-28-2011 at 01:27 PM.

  15. #15
    Koe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cormyat View Post
    ^This.^

    I'd way rather have an Archon than a bard in a 10-man any day. I'd way rather have an additional DPS'er. No, the buffs do NOT make up for the 700-900 DPS you lose with a bard.
    Because DPS is everything, right?

    No.

    62 Spell Power is huge for any caster. 62 attack? Not so much.

    5% crit for physical, magical, and heals.

    5% damage reduction

    5% increased healing

    5% Stat increase

    Minor DPS(100-200 in max heal spec)

    And some of the best raid heals available.

    All in ONE soul.


    It's not all about DPS. A properly geared bard(2x HoT + SWT or 2x Shield + SWT) is a lifesaver to 10-man, and 20-man. Doing any AoE intensive fights without a bard is, simply, stupid. A properly geared bard will also be able to solo heal T1s, and most T2s.

    I haven't been to Greenscale since I switched to 2x Shield greaters from 2x HoT greaters, but I was already doing 1k-1.1k HPS while providing my buffs on Greenscale.

    Stop relegating the bard position to your worst geared rogue, gear does make a difference and a good/properly geared bard makes all the difference in the world.
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