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Thread: Why are Rank 6 mages and clerics GODS but rogues are just pretty good?

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default Why are Rank 6 mages and clerics GODS but rogues are just pretty good?

    Why shouldn't Rank 6 rogues be gods as well? Why do clerics and mages have more survivability as well as 2 shot other classes?

    I do allright but I have to pop every cd, get lucky with immunities, get big crits and play with every bit of skill that I may have yet mages push a couple of buttons and two shot me.

    When I jump a cleric or mage they have a good chance to win. When I get jumped at range by a mage.....I die....no chance to live.

    Not asking for nerfs, just buff up rogues to the level of mages and clerics.

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    Telaran Cal_KC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojoxrisen View Post
    Why shouldn't Rank 6 rogues be gods as well? Why do clerics and mages have more survivability as well as 2 shot other classes?

    I do allright but I have to pop every cd, get lucky with immunities, get big crits and play with every bit of skill that I may have yet mages push a couple of buttons and two shot me.

    When I jump a cleric or mage they have a good chance to win. When I get jumped at range by a mage.....I die....no chance to live.

    Not asking for nerfs, just buff up rogues to the level of mages and clerics.
    Because there are very little resistances to magic and there are TONS of skills that mitigate physical. This is why a lot of Rogues play Nightblade for the elemental damage over physical.
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    Champion Cinerus's Avatar
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    Honestly, I feel pretty godlike on my prestige 6 rogue.

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    Ascendant Pesmergia's Avatar
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    Why are R6 Clerics and Mages GODS
    Because damage mitigation via valor with the ability to HEAL is very poorly scaled in their favor.

    Heal scaling in PvP altogether is completely scaled TOO HIGH, and when you factor in DR consistency, DR prevents CC from doing it's job......

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    Rift Chaser Misterjingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinerus View Post
    Honestly, I feel pretty godlike on my prestige 6 rogue.
    I'm only P5 atm with mainly P4 gear, and theres only 1 or 2 well played people I ever have trouble with. I have even won many 2v1 encounters on my Sin build (no pots, I should carry pots and I'd win a lot more!). I feel pretty strong tbh!
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    General of Telara joker225's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misterjingo View Post
    I'm only P5 atm with mainly P4 gear, and theres only 1 or 2 well played people I ever have trouble with. I have even won many 2v1 encounters on my Sin build (no pots, I should carry pots and I'd win a lot more!). I feel pretty strong tbh!
    I reckon you wait in stealth for the right time to attack (when you know you are going to win).
    Sin is useless. Everyone saying otherwise is 100% Underachieving.
    You have the healer killer NB build and MM for damage.
    But seriously, Assassin is good only for ganking and control of objectives in PUGs. If facing premades you wont do any good capping objectives.

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    Rift Chaser Misterjingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joker225 View Post
    I reckon you wait in stealth for the right time to attack (when you know you are going to win).
    Nope. I focus healers, then casters, then anyone else. Just last night I took down healers and casters in the midst of premades whilst they tried beating on me, then slipping away. Waiting for the right time means waiting most of the match.

    Sin is useless. Everyone saying otherwise is 100% Underachieving.
    You have the healer killer NB build and MM for damage.
    But seriously, Assassin is good only for ganking and control of objectives in PUGs. If facing premades you wont do any good capping objectives.
    I take down mages and healers easily with 44 in Sin. I take down 51 point sins, and majority NBs. 99% of MM are easy kills (or poorly played). Most WFs I top or come second in damage chart just from sin build, no spamming fan out to tickle the enemies and accrue huge numbers.

    Sins can be played very well if you take the time to learn the class and not rely on a few "crutch" macros.
    Last edited by Misterjingo; 05-27-2011 at 01:44 AM.
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    General of Telara joker225's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misterjingo View Post
    Nope. I focus healers, then casters, then anyone else. Just last night I took down healers and casters in the midst of premades whilst they tried beating on me, then slipping away. Waiting for the right time means waiting most of the match.



    I take down mages and healers easily with 44 in Sin. I take down 51 point sins, and majority NBs. 99% of MM are easy kills (or poorly played). Most WFs I top or come second in damage chart just from sin build, no spamming fan out to tickle the enemies and accrue huge numbers.

    Sins can be played very well if you take the time to learn the class and not rely on a few "crutch" macros.
    What is your highest crit?
    I have full rank 6, legendary weapon, use equisite whetstones and I can't break 1,6k crits with SS.
    This is simply put, not enough.
    If I have a MM assissting me I can't break templar (overload)/sentinel healer with basically 2 full heals.
    I can put 5k damage in final blow rotation and yet they overheal 1 sec after and I am useless afterwards.
    I can show you how to abuse a sin with bunny hoping style (this is what all clerics, range classes do, bunny hop).
    You will not hit me with a melee attack more then once (opener).
    Melee is broken in this game.
    Either you are playing a really against weak players or you suck.
    When a sin opens on me, 60% of his damage will come from ranger attacks (speaking about 51sin/15inf/0ranger now).

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    Rift Chaser Misterjingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joker225 View Post
    What is your highest crit?
    I have full rank 6, legendary weapon, use equisite whetstones and I can't break 1,6k crits with SS.
    This is simply put, not enough.
    If I have a MM assissting me I can't break templar (overload)/sentinel healer with basically 2 full heals.
    I can put 5k damage in final blow rotation and yet they overheal 1 sec after and I am useless afterwards.
    I can show you how to abuse a sin with bunny hoping style (this is what all clerics, range classes do, bunny hop).
    You will not hit me with a melee attack more then once (opener).
    Melee is broken in this game.
    My highest crit with with Final Blow is 2k(and this is against r5/6 premades, not some guy in greens). I have the R4 weapons atm. I put full bleeds on target + some other dots in the first instance. If healer, I'll then anathema them. If mage, I'll pop Cleanse soul, which makes me immune to a lot of their immediate counters.

    I then tear them down with my melee abilities throwing in final blow.

    I +crit on everything I can. My DoTs crit a lot.

    Either you are playing a really against weak players or you suck.
    When a sin opens on me, 60% of his damage will come from ranger attacks (speaking about 51sin/15inf/0ranger now).
    I've found 51 sin to be great for dueling, but rubbish for running combat in wf. It's all about the numbers.
    Last edited by Misterjingo; 05-27-2011 at 02:10 AM.
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    Telaran
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    Pretty good discussion so far I'm interested to see where it goes.

    background info, read if you want:
    I levelled pvp with sin/rs but at 50 found that after the initial plane shift and opener buff burst it lacked completely, read: totally, bar the odd <r4 or poor player (every defiant and his dog has r6 on our cluster as all their pugs get carried on their 24/7 premades to rank6 before you even learned their name).

    I haven't really used this since. I went to NB/defINFsoul up to rank 3 or so, went back to sinbleedstyle up to rank 4ish (with blue daggers I think) and most of rank 4 I have done in either:
    NB (can kill mana bars with ease but the game play is dull, knowing this is mostly fell blades)
    or MM (Can burst down most players when the CDs are up but the game play is dull, jumping around like a moron - mobile mage with 50% the survivability of cloth ftl).
    I just can't find a spec that I feel happy in.

    The bit I want you to read:

    Now I'm nearly rank 5 perhaps it's time to give sin a chance again, what with more valor and better weapons now.

    Currently my choices are:
    1. There is an MM/NB/0pointRS R6 rogue in our cluster that is an absolute ***** to kill and can take people out pretty well so I may try and see if that's viable at all. I know it is but thinking it needs the r6 stuff to pull it off well.
    2. Give 44 sin a go again, T2 epic daggers and buffed valor gear at rank 5 might make this more enjoyable for me. Only question is NB or RS, what do you use Misterjingo?
    3. Keep parading around with NB... yawn
    4. Keep jumping around with Imp Hit and Run... yawn

    In all honesty the rift rogue is boring, thanks to the rediculous diminishing returns it lacks cunning tbh the only way I'm making it interesting is by changing my roles all the time....
    Last edited by Vanthel; 05-27-2011 at 04:12 AM.

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    Rift Chaser Misterjingo's Avatar
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    I've tried a rift rouge for then +damage on shift with stalker phase. I'd stealth, shift behind and do my usual opener. You can do a lot of damage, but it felt a bit of a one trick pony to me. You had to do this every time to do effective damage.

    I tried the 51 rogue with Deadly Dance from Bladedancer, so you can have a guaranteed 105% damage inc to Serpent strike. When this crits, you mow people down. The lack of any kind of ranged ability kills this role in WF for me, as once again, it's very situational.

    One that seems an all rounder, and does very well against healers and other classes is 41 assassin with the rest spread between Inf and NB. It is gear dependent, so the higher P gear I get, the more fun it is to play.

    I add 3x fiery spike to my DoT opener, then DD them down. If they run, non-healing classes can be spammed down with fiery spike (with +crit, good crit essences, you can do a lot of very fast damage just with this spam).

    As with all Sin builds, you are dependent on Slipaway being up to play well (I spec so heavily in Sin to get Hidden Veil, as with the amount of aoe spam around, its needed).
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    Plane Touched Azath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joker225 View Post
    What is your highest crit?
    I have full rank 6, legendary weapon, use equisite whetstones and I can't break 1,6k crits with SS.
    This is simply put, not enough.
    If I have a MM assissting me I can't break templar (overload)/sentinel healer with basically 2 full heals.
    I can put 5k damage in final blow rotation and yet they overheal 1 sec after and I am useless afterwards.
    I can show you how to abuse a sin with bunny hoping style (this is what all clerics, range classes do, bunny hop).
    You will not hit me with a melee attack more then once (opener).
    Melee is broken in this game.
    Either you are playing a really against weak players or you suck.
    When a sin opens on me, 60% of his damage will come from ranger attacks (speaking about 51sin/15inf/0ranger now).
    highest SS crit for me =2435

    posted here

    51sin/15bd/0rng ftw

    no red bull,but had whispering silence +250 AP buff up.

    regularily hit 2k+ SS crits with this build, run in pretty much all the warfronts im in and will regularily top KBs, do well on damage, and win many a2v1 and 3v1 here and there. With weapon barrage and reprisal, you have 3 off-gcd attacks in my build. If you catch someone off guard and crit with serpent 2.2k+ crits, Deadly Dance (1.6k) or backstab (1.2), you cn easily pop someone in the span of a paralying strike, or assasinate/serpent strike if you are carrying the deadly dance buff after using slip away. See my video in my sig for a 4.5K timestamp at 43 seconds into the video (that was before hitting p6)

    you seem so self assured that since you couldnt achieve something with a cookie cutter spec that you didnt even come up with, no one else could do it better. despite all you gear you still need to l2p and think outside the box, rather than say other people are bad for running 51pt sin

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    Plane Touched Azath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misterjingo View Post

    As with all Sin builds, you are dependent on Slipaway being up to play well (I spec so heavily in Sin to get Hidden Veil, as with the amount of aoe spam around, its needed).
    i disagree with this, an also run 0pt ranger with 51sin/15bd so at least you have some ranged. Slip away is great and all, but you can always break off from combat for 5 seconds to get back not normal stealth (not always possible granted.)

    i just dont agree that is a dependancy for playing well, it does give you more options both offensively and defensively but one of the strength of a 51sin/15bd spec is that you are not dependant on CD to pump out good damage, cause SS, backstab, and deadly dance can pretty much all be up every 8secs.

    I always try to rotate to the back as i hit with deadly dance so that the following SS and backstab land together with the deadly dance buff up.

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    Rift Chaser Misterjingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azath View Post
    i disagree with this, an also run 0pt ranger with 51sin/15bd so at least you have some ranged. Slip away is great and all, but you can always break off from combat for 5 seconds to get back not normal stealth (not always possible granted.)

    i just dont agree that is a dependancy for playing well, it does give you more options both offensively and defensively but one of the strength of a 51sin/15bd spec is that you are not dependant on CD to pump out good damage, cause SS, backstab, and deadly dance can pretty much all be up every 8secs.

    I always try to rotate to the back as i hit with deadly dance so that the following SS and backstab land together with the deadly dance buff up.
    I guess I should have qualified that with "for my play style".

    I'm sometimes a bit gung-ho, so if I see 2-3 at a flag, I'll open up with JS + DoT openers, melee, and once my helth starts going seriously down, slip away. If I do decided to try and take the others on, once my openers from stealth are done, its a straight up melee-fest with no escape unless I take them all down.

    I might spec a soul to a 51 Sin again now that DRs are a bit more sensible, allowing for tactical CC play again for such encounters - with my usualy spec I have Foul play for immediate target and Blinding for one of the others, Poison Gas would be nice. I just feel a bit "limited" without any kind of range attack as melee range is so low in this game.

    I guess NB could be replaced with ranger, I just like the x3 fiery spike + 15% builder and finisher damage boost.

    I might try it and see how it goes.
    Last edited by Misterjingo; 05-27-2011 at 06:59 AM.
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    Xsi
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    Against p3 or lower players, p6 rogue is very "godlike" (I'd call it elite status) if you go for a sturdy build (NB and/or RS).

    Against p6 mages/clerics, you are brought back into the "well, if they catch you out of stealth", you die most times. Slip Away or sequentially blowing defensive NB cooldowns or superior range/kiting with MM or strong team heals is pretty much the crutch required to play a rogue and I don't think that changes from p1 to p6 at level 50.

    The opening sequence (and first few globals) pretty much dictates the entire fight against other p6 players (either they blow all their offense spike and kill you in two globals (Pyro mage) or they blow all their defense abilities (tank cleric/Warlock armor/detaunt/CCs) and you're screwed unless you can get away or have assistance).

    The occasional p6 warrior will also give you trouble but really they are no different than other p6 rogues but without stealth and more back end (execute) damage or are too tanky/survivability spec'd to do decent spike damage and are best left to bleed to death.
    Last edited by Xsi; 05-27-2011 at 07:34 AM.
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