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Thread: RS 51 pt (Scatter the Shadows) -- why the hate?

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default RS 51 pt (Scatter the Shadows) -- why the hate?

    I keep seeing tanking threads proposing sub-51 pt RS builds because Scatter the Shadows " isn't worth it. I just want someone to honestly explain to me how they don't consider StS to be an amazing cooldown.

    1) Barring total healer incompetence, it's basically an extra life. Once every two minutes when you would normally die, you give your healer 3 entire seconds of healing time to get you back on your feet. Anyone who has played a healer knows that 3 seconds is a huge amount of time to heal.

    2) People have used parses expressing total damage output over 2 minutes and then subtracting three seconds of damage to slow the relative "weakness" of StS. The problem is that this is only viable if you are using StS on cooldown every 2 minutes, which is not the intended usage. You're using it either for the scenario provided in (1) or to not eat a damage spike/one-shot move, in which case you're evading a much more prominent amount of damage.

    This isn't even getting into the cleansing and immunity granted by this ability, and it's not counting the oft-argued gains one gets from the RS passives by putting in a full 51 points. I can understand being over-geared and making some sort of a random +threat or whatever build, but I don't see how anyone can argue against full 51 RS for any serious tanking build.

    tl;dr: 51 RS yay.

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple
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    It depends on how you want to play it. You can trade some more "consistent" benefits for minor additions to hp/armor and a death save every few minutes, or go ahead and take the benefits of those extra points. Both are viable really.

  3. #3
    Zab
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacque View Post
    It depends on how you want to play it. You can trade some more "consistent" benefits for minor additions to hp/armor and a death save every few minutes, or go ahead and take the benefits of those extra points. Both are viable really.
    What benefits? I personally don't see any benefit at all from putting more points into BD. Sure you get some pointless abilities and if thats what you want then i guess it would be a great spec. Sprint is not even close to needed if you know how to use your shadow warp, flash back, and shadow stalk. If you're needing more CD's to grab mobs that are being ripped off you then you're doing something terribly wrong.

    Compound attack is a joke, it gives you do more aoe dmg but the threat it generates is next to nothing, so what's the purpose? I'm not going to argue and say ambidextrous is useless because it isn't, but it also doesn't come close to outweighing the amount you gain from going 51 points into RS. Weapon barrage is bad as you have better things to be using energy on and once again it generates barely any threat. Everything else you gain will not help you in any raid setting.

    The hit you're gaining from being deeper into bladedancer is also useless, T2 hit cap is crazy easy to reach and you don't need any raid gear to get hit capped for raids. StS is also an amazing cooldown like the people above said, ask any other tank (that isn't a RS) if they would want a cooldown that reduces all damage to zero for 3 seconds, i'm pretty sure nobody would say "no that sucks". If tanking GS and for whatever reason you're somewhat low and need something to keep you alive it doesn't matter if you're at 1HP as long as you pop sts you wont die. If you do, then your healers need some help because three seconds is easily enough time to get fully topped off in a raid setting.
    Last edited by Zab; 05-24-2011 at 08:15 PM.

  4. #4
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    More avoidance. More DPS. More AE stuff.

    I'm not here to debate anybody really. I'm just saying, if you like 51RS, cool beans. If you like tanking with less, that's cool too. at 50 I intend to swap back and forth with a 20BD/44RS/2Sab and a 51 RS with the points taken from BD, myself.

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacque View Post
    It depends on how you want to play it. You can trade some more "consistent" benefits for minor additions to hp/armor and a death save every few minutes, or go ahead and take the benefits of those extra points. Both are viable really.
    I would argue that the truth of this statement depends upon your definition of "viable". Technically, given enough healing throughput, any build able to hold threat and not get one-spotted could be called "viable" as a tank, but that doesn't make it ideal. Again, there are theoretical situations where a boss might be made such that an alternate build might be preferable for that specific encounter (e.g. Gregori Kreslav in DSM having decidedly low general damage output but strongly encouraging an interrupt, hence 12 BD being uncommonly useful in that encounter). Even in that fight though, this mechanic can be passed to a DPS to take care of; taking the damage, by contrast, can't be passed off and, thus, should generally be the main focus.

    That said, while alternate builds do offer other theoretically useful tanking abilities (ambidexterity and Improved False Blade, for example), whose merits versus the passive gains from 51 RS are up for debate, my point is that none of those offer the raw capacity to prevent situations which otherwise would be wipes that Scatter the Shadows grants you every two minutes.
    Last edited by UnisexSalmon; 05-24-2011 at 09:59 PM.

  6. #6
    Shield of Telara WriteThemWrong's Avatar
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    Scatter the Shadows is a must have for any rogue tanks! Main reason is for those extra 3 seconds of impenetrability where your healer could get your health back up or if you goofed and forget to go to the light when fight Ragnoth. I use it all the time and its insane to think only rogues have a skill like this (?), where you take absolutely no damage for 3 seconds. Yeah its short but 3 seconds means a lot for the dps and healers in your group.

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    Ok then. Bailing on the thread of closemindedness.

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    Considering you can get upto weapon barrage (a very useful tool in 5 mans for getting casters over to you when planar attraction is on cd or theres too many mobs for it to pull the caster) and still be 51 point riftstalker theres no issue with that.

    I only switched out of my 51rs/15bd/0xx build for fighting greenscale, then I speced right back into it after.

    I have the extra avoidance, top rift guard, top emergency buttons at the expense of a tiny bit of hp thats not needed and 4% damage reduction I happily give up for the utility of barrage and on occasion, maim.

    That said I dont see any advantage in going further than 15 points into bladedancer.

    Energy is not much of a concern when tanking so those talents are no use, non of the attacks from root will help much due to really needing to concentrate on using the high threat moves instead.

    Combo point generation is not an issue at all for even just an 51rs/8bd build, and Im here to tank not do damage, if I wanted to do damage I'd play my dps role, all these damage increase talents are not going to do much at all anyway, specially when you factor in their all weaker due to guardian phase anyway.

    The only thing that may possibly be an actual boon to a tank would be improved falseblade for 6% more parry and blade hustle for 6 seconds more sidestepping, but both are far to high up the bladedancer tree to make them worth while, you'd have to sacrifice around 3.5% mitigation, 7% endurance and the best emergency button for a 6% avoidance gain from parry or 6.5% mitigation, 13% endurance, the best emergency button and your mob movement/aoe snap taunt move for 6% more avoidance and 6 seconds longer sidesteps every 2 minutes.

    And thats before you think about taking more points out for health boosts from bard or ranger, though ranger at least comes with no real loss to pure damage reduction.

    the only aoe move from blade dancer thats really worth even considering is twin strike and even thats not nessecary, rift disturbance and blitz are all the aoe you need to keep things on you, beyond that it would just be attempting to dps at the expense of generating threat/buffs which is not what your there for.
    Last edited by Dasorine; 05-25-2011 at 01:46 AM.

  9. #9
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    Anything not 51 RS is just wrong, if you're tanking for progression. If you're messing around and want a higher dps tank build for say a rapid assault run, then by all means do what you want.

    But if you need to tank an important hard hitting boss for raid progression, 51 RS or bust.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnisexSalmon View Post
    I keep seeing tanking threads proposing sub-51 pt RS builds because Scatter the Shadows " isn't worth it. I just want someone to honestly explain to me how they don't consider StS to be an amazing cooldown.

    1) Barring total healer incompetence, it's basically an extra life. Once every two minutes when you would normally die, you give your healer 3 entire seconds of healing time to get you back on your feet. Anyone who has played a healer knows that 3 seconds is a huge amount of time to heal.

    2) People have used parses expressing total damage output over 2 minutes and then subtracting three seconds of damage to slow the relative "weakness" of StS. The problem is that this is only viable if you are using StS on cooldown every 2 minutes, which is not the intended usage. You're using it either for the scenario provided in (1) or to not eat a damage spike/one-shot move, in which case you're evading a much more prominent amount of damage.

    This isn't even getting into the cleansing and immunity granted by this ability, and it's not counting the oft-argued gains one gets from the RS passives by putting in a full 51 points. I can understand being over-geared and making some sort of a random +threat or whatever build, but I don't see how anyone can argue against full 51 RS for any serious tanking build.

    tl;dr: 51 RS yay.

    Maybe you answered your own question in there. SERIOUS tanking build, which I think you mean, raiding level, primary tank build. As I posted in another thread, I pushed more points into BD to utilize dodge and see if I could increase Deeeps in my guild runs. My main healer suggested I do so, simply because I was too easy to heal and though a slow move to hybrid would be helpful.

    My guild is not raiding GS at this time. I will easily go back if I happen to be the MT once we get moving into it. But for T2 and T1 guild runs, I don't HATE Scatter, I just don't NEED it right now. Same with the additional points in RS to get the max out of the other tanking abilities.

    I would also ask why the hate for NOT taking Scatter.

  11. #11
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    I can tank T2 as a saboteur if I toss some toughness gear on with the way dungeons are functioning right now.

    When it comes to raiding, you want 51rs. Greenscale and Alsbeth in particular are fights where that one single ability does far far more than extra points in BD or another soul. For offtanking, raid rifts, t1/t2 groups, etc I would agree that a few less points in RS isn't a big deal and might even be better, but for raiding you really really want to have Scatter.

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  12. #12
    Telaran remilafo's Avatar
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    As a Rogue tank who tanks GSB and ROS, I will tell you Scatter the shadows is never needed.

    Not saying Scatter the shadows is useless as it certainly does have it's uses but if your running in a raid or a experienced group your never gonna get into situation where you REALLY need that ultra OH **** immunity.

    I personally tank GSB with 50RS/8R/8BD

    I drop planar switch (31 poiunt RS skill) cause it's useless in a boss fight. I grab 5% hp and 6% reduction from Ranger.... and 5% Dodge, strike back and Reprisal from Bladedancer, but really 8 points into BD is for False Blade.

    This currently is the best single target boss tanking spec in the game.. It has ridiculous dmg mitigation.

    As for tanking trash or whatever a 51pt RS might come in handy.
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    hmm I'd still rather have the emergency button, 1% hp, 0.5% riftguard absorption and a free combo point every once in a while over the 2% damage reduction.

    Sure you should never need to use it, but things don't always go to plan and having a button that will help you get back on top of things is the difference between a wipe or not in those situations.

  14. #14
    Telaran remilafo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dasorine View Post
    hmm I'd still rather have the emergency button, 1% hp, 0.5% riftguard absorption and a free combo point every once in a while over the 2% damage reduction.

    Sure you should never need to use it, but things don't always go to plan and having a button that will help you get back on top of things is the difference between a wipe or not in those situations.

    Sure.. ................
    Xerise, Eliana, Eurydice, Rissa and December
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    I mean if your not needing the scatter the shadows for emergencys, used strategically and it can remove some massive hits that would I daresay, make up a good 1% mitigation.

    Granted its all give and take but when it all comes together your 2% mitigation is in place of quite a few boons.

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